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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Defining a correct simulating halt decider
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2024 16:48:16 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 9/7/24 3:27 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 9/7/2024 11:53 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 9/7/24 12:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 9/7/2024 11:30 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 9/7/24 12:23 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 9/7/2024 11:20 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/7/24 11:47 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/7/2024 10:32 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/7/24 11:14 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/7/2024 10:10 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/7/24 10:54 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/7/2024 9:46 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sat, 07 Sep 2024 08:38:22 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/5/2024 12:22 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 05 Sep 2024 12:17:01 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/5/2024 11:56 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 05 Sep 2024 11:52:04 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/5/2024 11:34 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 05 Sep 2024 11:10:40 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/5/2024 10:57 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 05 Sep 2024 08:24:20 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/5/2024 2:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-03 13:00:50 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2024 5:25 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-02 16:38:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The directly executed HHH correctly determines that its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must be aborted because DDD keeps *THE EMULATED HHH* 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive emulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why doesn’t the simulated HHH abort?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first HHH cannot wait for its HHH to abort which is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waiting for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its HHH to abort on and on with no HHH ever aborting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But why does HHH halt and return that itself doesn’t halt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When HHH is waiting for the next HHH which is waiting for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is waiting for the next HHH...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we have an infinite chain of waiting and never aborting.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Except for the outermost one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When the outermost HHH is waiting for its emulated HHH
>>>>>>>>>>> to abort and this emulated HHH is waiting on its emulated
>>>>>>>>>>> HHH to abort on and on forever waiting and none ever abort.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which only happens if HHH is defined in a way that it never 
>>>>>>>>>> aborts this simulaiton, and that HHH isn't a correct decider.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is NOT what Joes has been proposing.
>>>>>>>>> Joes has been proposing that each HHH in the recursive chain
>>>>>>>>> can wait until the next one aborts and that the abort will
>>>>>>>>> still occur at the end of this infinite chain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, he is pointing out that get the right answer, each HHH NEEDS 
>>>>>>>> to wait for the previous one to get the right answer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, if to do so, it results in the definition of HHH that just 
>>>>>>>> never aborts and thus HHH isn't a decider.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not He, and stupidly waiting forever is stupid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, what do you think HHH can do to get the right answer,
>>>>>
>>>>> No dishonestly changing the subject.
>>>>> The subject is that Joes is wrong that HHH can wait
>>>>> on another HHH to abort.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it isn't a changing of the subject!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Can the outermost directly executed HHH wait for an
>>> inner one to abort and still terminate normally.
>>> (a) YES
>>> (b) NO
>>>
>>
>> No, 
> 
> *Therefore this criteria is met*
> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>      until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
>      stop running unless aborted then
> 

Nope, and just proves that you don't understand what you are talking about.

Your question was, when HHH is the variable, and the input DDD is 
defined to be a function of that variable, does HHH need to be an 
aborting emulator to reach the final state. And there the answer is HHH 
must be an aborting emulator.

When you ask Professor Sipser, DDD was a FIXED INPUT, as that is what 
inputs to deciders are. And the DDD that you are giving to your HHH is 
the DDD that calls the HHH that is acting on this decision. HHH need to 
deterimine if *THIS* input will halt or not, not some other DDD that 
calls a diffferent HHH that doesn't abort. That doesn't make DDD a 
PROGRAM which is a requirement for the input.

Since you have said your HHH WILL Abort and return, that makes *THIS* 
DDD a halting program, and when we evalate the conditions listed:

First, this HHH, since it DOES abort its emulaition does not do the 
emulation that shows it will never stop running, so we need to give THIS 
input, the DDD that calls the HHH that aborts to a correct emulator, and 
see what happens, and that emulation WILL reach the end.

You have been told this many times, and you failure to understand this 
just proves that you have a funny-mental condition of the inability to 
understand truth, and are just demonstrating that you are nothing but a 
pathetic ignorant pathological lying idiot who is incapable of 
understanding what he has been talking about.