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Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: HHH(DD) --- COMPUTE ACTUAL MAPPING FROM INPUT TO OUTPUT ---
 Using Finite String Transformations
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2025 00:55:15 +0800
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In-Reply-To: <3854dd6ef97e91fb695a96e911b6d9c531899a78.camel@gmail.com>

On Thu, 2025-04-24 at 00:49 +0800, wij wrote:
> On Wed, 2025-04-23 at 16:28 +0100, Mike Terry wrote:
> > On 23/04/2025 10:02, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> > > Op 22.apr.2025 om 21:50 schreef olcott:
> > > > On 4/22/2025 2:30 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> > > > > Op 22.apr.2025 om 21:14 schreef olcott:
> > > > > > On 4/22/2025 1:10 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> > > > > > > Op 22.apr.2025 om 18:38 schreef olcott:
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > a function is computable if there exists an algorithm
> > > > > > > > that can do the job of the function, i.e. given an input
> > > > > > > > of the function domain it can return the corresponding outp=
ut.
> > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_function
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > On Turing Machines inputs <are> finite strings, and
> > > > > > > > finite string transformation rules <are> applied to
> > > > > > > > these finite strings to derive corresponding outputs.
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > And it has been proven that no finite string transformations =
are possible that report
> > > > > > > the=20
> > > > > > > halting behaviour for all inputs that specify a correct progr=
am.=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > int sum(int x, int y) { return x + y; }
> > > > > > Only when people stupid assume the same thing as
> > > > > > sum(3,2) should return the sum of 5 + 3.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > Therefore HHH should report on the actual input, the finite strin=
g that describes a halting=20
> > > > > program. Not on the hypothetical input that does not halt, becaus=
e it is based on a
> > > > > hypothetical=20
> > > > > HHH that does not abort.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Why do you maintain that HHH should process the hypothetical inpu=
t instead of the actual
> > > > > input.
> > > > > Do you really believe that 3+2 equals 5+3?
> > > >=20
> > > > I have proven that the directly executed DD and DD
> > > > emulated by HHH according to the semantics of the
> > > > x86 language have a different set of state changes
> > > > many hundreds of times for several years.
> > > You never showed a proof. You only repeated a dream. You are dreaming=
 many years without any
> > > logic.=20
> > > You failed to show the first state change where the direct execution =
is different from the=20
> > > simulation. You only showed an erroneous HHH that fails to reach the =
end of the simulation of a=20
> > > halting program.
> >=20
> > Worse than this, on more than one occasion I've actually posted traces =
of computation DDD(DDD)=20
> > executed directly and simulated by HHH side by side.=C2=A0 Both traces =
were of course /identical/, up
> > to=20
> > the point where HHH stops simulating.=C2=A0 I even compared (but did no=
t post) the /full/ traces=20
> > including instructions outside of DDD which PO normally suppresses.=C2=
=A0 This makes the trace quite
> > long
> > - tens of thousands of entries as I recall - but as expected they were =
identical line for line
> > right
> > up to the point where HHH aborts the trace.
>=20
> HHH/DDD is invalid for the Halting Problem any way, nothing to do with 'c=
orrect'
> (or incorrect) simulation.
> Sadly, I can only see you alone understand why (others don't really under=
stand neither)

dbush also is correct

> > This feature of computation, namely that every computation has exactly =
one defined sequence of=20
> > computation steps is perhaps THE most basic feature of computation, cap=
turing its essential
> > notion.=20
> > It's understood by students even before they turn up for the first lect=
ure introducing the=20
> > definition of a TM.=C2=A0 I dare say it's understood by children who've=
 never heard of a TM, but=20
> > understand what an algorithm is, or broadly what a "computer program" i=
s, or who have sat through=20
> > one of those school lessons where they are presented with a simple flow=
 chart to calculate
> > something.
> >=20
> > PO seems unable to take this on board mentally.=C2=A0 I'd guess he unde=
rstands at some level that if
> > his=20
> > claim that "the trace depends on who is doing the simulation" is reveal=
ed as nonsense, then his=20
> > claim that HHH is "correct" when it gives the wrong answer collapses, a=
nd in fact must be viewed
> > as=20
> > laughable.=C2=A0 He would have to admit he has simply wasted 20 years (=
or whatever) of his life on=20
> > something that was Plain Wrong.
> >=20
> > PO's response to these posts is to ignore them=C2=A0
>=20
> He cannot understand what people says. Because he cannot even understand =
every
> fundamental term or concept of science/math/logic/computation, instead he=
 HAS his=C2=A0
> own interpretation AND believes he understands better than anyone else. H=
e believes
> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one el=
se can see."
> Therefore, lots of misinterpretation follows, worst of all, lies (purpose=
fully=20
> twists what has happened, what he reads,..,etc. even what he wrote/said b=
efore).
> Olcott has problem to see that his C skill is worse than beginners, and t=
hinks=20
> he is an C expert !!! (competent at least).
>=20
> > - it's like he's been shell shocked, and like a=20
> > childhood trauma he suppresses the memory of the event.=C2=A0 After a c=
ouple of weeks he just starts=20
> > repeating the claim that he has proved the traces differ and that it is=
 a "verified fact" etc., as
> > though nothing has happened.=C2=A0 (Of course the truth is the exact op=
posite - the verified fact is
> > that
> > the traces are identical up to the point where HHH decides to stop the =
simulation.)
> >=20
>=20
> As said, it does not matter whether the 'simulation' is correct or not, P=
OOH is invalid
> for the Halting Problem. (try a valid one to know).
>=20
> > Mike.
> >=20
>=20
>=20