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From: legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: pdf page counting
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 11:28:23 -0500
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On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 16:33:46 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 12/25/2024 1:24 PM, legg wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 11:47:30 -0700, Don Y
>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 12/25/2024 7:10 AM, legg wrote:
>>>> That was the sort of Reader output that I had in mind.
>>>
>>> I don't know what it "looks" like in other viewers.  And,
>>> apparently, many don't support searching for page labels;
>>> they think of pages as being *numbered*.
>>>
>>>> I'll pay more attention to the features offered by my
>>>> pdf publishing utility, (pdf995) to see what results I
>>>> can get here.
>>>
>>> Can't help you, there.  I use FrameMaker (et al.) for
>>> my DTP needs; they are reasonably well integrated so
>>> I can tell one what I want *it* to tell the others...
>>>
>>>> If I can't wrestle it into shape, I may take you up on
>>>> your offer, just to get this out of my hair, after revisions.
>>>
>>> Truly no problem.  The download and sneakernet into my office
>>> was the biggest "effort".  Adjusting the page labels is:
>>> - open thumbnails
>>> - select a set of pages to be labeled
>>> - open "Label Pages..." dialog
>>> - select style (1,2,3; i,ii,ii; A,B,C; etc.)
>>> - APPLY
>>>
>>>> I'd normally add or remove pages by printing partial portions,
>>>> then rejoining them.
>>>
>>> In Acrobat, I just select the thumbnails for the pages to delete and then
>>> hit DELETE.  I will have to see how the labels alter if I cut a section
>>> out of the middle.  I would imagine the FIRST page in a section is the
>>> most critical (as it likely contains the sequencing information for its
>>> successors)
>>>
>>> I should see how rotated pages fit in the mix (they shouldn't
>>> be handled any differently -- but, "you never know")
>>>
>>> [I frequently put a B-size "fold out" in the middle of a document
>>> and often only the recto side is numbered]
>>>
>>>> That doesn't appear to be practical
>>>> if 'sections' carry un-numbered or oddly-paginated groups.
>>>> 0 seems particularly problematic.
>>>
>>> I would address '0' as "0"; in much the same way as "IV"
>>> or "COVER"
>>>
>>>> How would an end-user print the copyright page, or dedication
>>>> page, if the select-page-to-print area of the gui offers
>>>> pages ' -425 ' ?
>>>
>>> With the labeling facility, you can specify "" (empty/blank)
>>> as the page label -- as I did for the cover and early front matter
>>> in your example.
>>>
>>> If your viewer/reader software can search for page labels (which
>>> is what all *should* be able to do as labels go WAY back in the
>>> specification's history -- for obvious reasons), you could exploit
>>> that ability to quickly access particular pages ("INDEX", "TABLES",
>>> etc.) in the absence of hyperlinks in the document (of course this
>>> means abandoning the VISIBLE page number on that page)
>>>
>> 
>> I notice that the Foxit reader doesn't recognize the new labeling.
>> That's pretty popular.
>
>Hmmmm.  From <https://pdfa.org/pdf-ux-page-labels/> (near the very end):
>
>------------8<--------------8<----------------8<------------
>"In July 2024, the PDF Association conducted an informal survey of popular 
>desktop PDF viewers providing support for WYISIHYN navigation. Our assessment 
>was based on a single test of whether entering the Roman numeral “iv” resulted 
>in the page changing to PDF page 4.
>
>"The shortlist of viewers in our survey that support WYISIHYN navigation:
>
>     Adobe Acrobat
>     Apple Preview
>     Apryse PDF Studio Viewer
>     Apryse Xodo PDF Studio
>     FireFox (Mozilla pdf.js)
>     Foxit
>     PDFextra
>     PDF Reader Pro (Mac)
>     PDF XChange"
>
>------------8<--------------8<----------------8<------------
>
>This appears to apply to a test document which contains a variety of
>page labels (described in the referenced page).
>
><https://github.com/pdf-association/pdf-differences/blob/main/PageLabels-UX/PageLabelsTest.pdf>
>
>The entire web page is worthwhile reading (IMHO).  The anecdote provided
>in the "Page labels in ISO publications" aside being typical of the effort
>to USE such labeling capabilities.
>
>Sadly, folks feel free to interpret standards any way they choose,
>rationalizing that they "know" what their users want" -- even in the face
>of evidence to the contrary (e.g., hundreds of years of prior art):
>
>    "In longer or more complex documents with distinct sections, it is
>     not uncommon to use Roman numerals for front matter page identifiers,
>     descriptive page labels for back matter such as annexes or appendices,
>     or even start a document with a page identifier other than 1. However,
>     if the author/publisher fails to align the visible page identifiers
>     on each page with the navigation data when users attempt to go to
>     page “ix” or “12” they may end up at entirely different locations!
>     Is that the 12th logical page, or the page with “12” in the footer,
>     or somewhere else?"
>
>Obviously, the problem posed in your initial post.
>
>Also a reason why many websites point users at the "free Adobe Reader"
>instead of some other substandard free/not-free product.  (Try viewing
>it in Firefox; it works as expected, there)
>
>[I suspect many of the "fillable tax forms" that are available from
>gummit websites would also fail on such products  <frown> ]


The resized and typod version boiled down to ~80meg.

Surprise, surprise - the PDF995 tool can be manipulated to give 
 sectional page counting that's recognized by Adobe and Foxit 
readers.

Joining two volumes initially preserves page count of both.
This disappears when the enjoined volume is reprinted.
Solution - 'don't do that'.

I noticed this by accident - the second stitching exercise 
used ~ 20-page sections to avoid repeated reprint of large 
single-page-count increments.

https://ve3ute.ca/prairie_gold/sample_250113.zip

I could check the mail, have a snack, read a book chapter 
any time a large file was reprinted for editing/sequencing.

Anyways, that's all over and I can forget all about it, as 
with most software tools these days.

BeeMaid's lawyuhs are still twiddling thumbs, though author 
and editor are thrilled. Reading the book, you can concieve 
Saskatchewan co-op membership getting screwed regularly by 
their Manitoban brothers over time. This may just be one more 
kick in the can. The largest shippers always end up ruling 
the roost and these days you can only join 'if there's a spot' 
and you commit to non-part-time volumes.

At a certain scale, the differences between co-op and corporate 
begin to blurr, but they could still be bought out tomorrow 
by a wingnut corporation from poughkeepsie, if the members 
voted to do so. So far they've maintained at least the semblance 
of producer independence and mutual protection in a wild 
marketplace and invreasingly hazardous environment for bees.

RL