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From: Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Evolutionary creationism
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 17:06:45 +0000
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On Fri, 14 Mar 2025 08:04:06 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 3/14/2025 3:23 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 10:02:21 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3/13/2025 8:23 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 11:43:35 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/12/2025 8:25 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 13:06:43 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/11/2025 12:21 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 09:21:24 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2025 5:06 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 17:20:56 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They are still not abiding by
>>>>>>>>>>> Saint Augustine's admonishment about not using the Bible to make claims
>>>>>>>>>>> about what we can determine for ourselves about nature, so my guess is
>>>>>>>>>>> that their efforts can still fail to represent nature accurately
>>>>>>>>>>> depending on how consistent with the Bible that they want to be.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They are NOT in any way contradicting Saint Augustine's admonishment,
>>>>>>>>>> they are following it perfectly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you think differently then like MarkE, you haven't properly grasped
>>>>>>>>>> the meaning of what St Augustine meant.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They are trying to force biological evolution into conforming with their
>>>>>>>>> Biblical interpretation.  As such what are they missing about biological
>>>>>>>>> evolution?  Some of them are denying that natural mechanisms were
>>>>>>>>> involved in some of that evolution.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please give an example of that.
>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You SNIPed it out.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is nothing in what I snipped that shows anyone denying that
>>>>>> natural mechanisms were involved in evolution. On the contrary, as
>>>>>> quoted by you from their website, they define one of their core values
>>>>>> as affirming the established findings of modern science. Are you
>>>>>> calling them liars?
>>>>>
>>>>> That obviously is not true.  Did you actually read what you snipped out?
>>>>>    What were their other core values?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is exactly what you posted from their site earlier::
>>>>
>>>> ====================================
>>>>
>>>> QUOTE:
>>>> Evolutionary Creation (EC) is a Christian position on origins. It
>>>> takes
>>>> the Bible seriously as the inspired and authoritative word of God, and
>>>> it takes science seriously as a way of understanding the world God has
>>>> made. EC includes two basic ideas. First, that God created all things,
>>>> including human beings in his own image. Second, that evolution is the
>>>> best scientific explanation we currently have for the diversity and
>>>> similarities of all life on Earth.
>>>> END QUOTE:
>>>>
>>>> QUOTE:
>>>> The Identity of BioLogos
>>>> Core Values
>>>> Christ-centered Faith - We embrace the historical Christian faith,
>>>> upholding the authority and inspiration of the Bible.
>>>>
>>>> Rigorous Science - We affirm the established findings of modern
>>>> science,
>>>> celebrating the wonders of God's creation.
>>>>
>>>> Gracious Dialogue - We strive for humble and thoughtful dialogue with
>>>> those who hold other views, speaking the truth in love.
>>>> END QUOTE:
>>>>
>>>> ===============================================
>>>>
>>>> Where in that are they are denying that natural mechanisms were
>>>> involved in some of that evolution?
>>>
>>> They are like Behe and claiming that their god is needed to do a
>>> specific thing that they claim the Bible tells them so.
>>>
>>> What do you not get?  The reasoning is no different from Behe claiming
>>> that some god is needed to create the flagellum.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> They obviously have other feelings
>>>>> about what are not "established findings of modern science."
>>>>
>>>> So what does it matter what they think about things outside of
>>>> science, how is that contradicting science?
>>>
>>> They are claiming that their understanding of science can be made to
>>> conform to their literal interpretations of the Bible.  It is the same
>>> claim that the ID perps make except they agree that biological evolution
>>> is a fact of nature.  Some of them still think like Behe.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Not only
>>>>> that, but as I indicated there are somethings about evolution that have
>>>>> not been established because they claim to be tweekers like Behe, and
>>>>> their god has been tweeking things in order to make humans into his own
>>>>> image.
>>>>
>>>> I'm still waiting for an example of those tweekers. And why do you
>>>> keep bringing Behe into it? He has nothing to do with Biologos or they
>>>> with him. They actually have a lengthy article about his "Darwin's
>>>> Black Box" book where they go through his arguments one by one and
>>>> show how they don't stand up.
>>>
>>> How do you expect god to have made man in his own image without
>>> tweeking?  They likely even differ in what they think image means.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://biologos.org/common-questions/how-can-evolution-account-for-the-complexity-of-life-on-earth-today
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The example was in their description of what they
>>>>>>> believed.  They believe that the Bible is the "inspired and
>>>>>>> authroitative word of God" and "First, that God created all things,
>>>>>>> including human beings in his own image.".  You have to read their web
>>>>>>> site to learn that some of them are tweekers that claim that their god
>>>>>>> was involved in guiding the evolution of life on earth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have read their web site and I see nothing anywhere about forcing
>>>>>> biological evolution into conforming with their
>>>>>> Biblical interpretation. Feel free to point it out if I have missed
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> You must have missed the part about tweekers,
>>>>
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