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From: john larkin <jl@650pot.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: British (european?) kitchen counter electric outlets
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 07:34:48 -0700
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On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:00:18 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
>>>> In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
>>>> (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition,
>>>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
>>>> (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
>>>> we settled on 3').
>>>>
>>>> SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
>>>> were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a
>>>> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
>>>> of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address
>>>> NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
>>>> likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
>>>> total load isn't an issue?
>>>>
>>>> E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
>>>> ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
>>>> wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
>>>> outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
>>>> over where they can be put into use.
>>>>
>>> We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall.
>>> Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
>>> supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will
>>> be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
>>> in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A
>>> kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
>>> main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier
>>> own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
>>> cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
>>> in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
>>> depending.
>> 
>> Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
>> cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
>> reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?
>
>Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a 
>third to one quarter of the cost.
>
>There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps 
>instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same 
>heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat 
>for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps 
>are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All 
>this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power. 
>What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have 
>to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower 
>temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This 
>necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor 
>water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation 
>so that heat loss is reduced.
>
>> How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?
>
>How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences, 
>weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including 
>losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls 
>the prices of gas and electricity. From 
><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30 
>September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh), 
>and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much) 
>lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company 
>who supplies the power.
>
>I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's 
>a lot more information there.

I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of
gas-to-electricity converter machine. 

The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.