Path: nntp.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: The Sciences of the Artificial applied to Biology
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2025 14:02:17 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <kmu27kt01ien0olplif869vkdr0ip94ch9@4ax.com>
References: <7out6k96b8cgjr3t5bdnr8g432shen7vqe@4ax.com> <901u6k99debtpilfo7tf9u6m7aka4o7ohq@4ax.com> <9a707kp9bb25rvi864d63qumspol391vpu@4ax.com> <sfe07k1e2t2o7ob1lk0s9d2n18hvegrfql@4ax.com> <jrj07kt46p4tai4odp1en39e5tqjbhvcv3@4ax.com> <90p27ktog9qja7gfefrihih6blougg160n@4ax.com> <60t27ktcftm3078imqagsssbupsikklfeq@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2025 23:02:19 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="5c9a0ba2a27d09aa0de6d1cab401a694";
	logging-data="1796662"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19iDMIFProUscpoK9ZYH5Pt"
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
Cancel-Lock: sha1:lepmG2xhl10KEiFSeSPmhJUw1L0=

On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 16:44:47 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 12:22:12 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 19:48:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 15:16:48 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 16:14:51 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 11:04:32 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 09 Jul 2025 19:38:41 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I forgot to mention that he Sciences of the Artificial digs deep into
>>>>>>>why living things (even microscopic ones) have distinct organs and
>>>>>>>often components within such organs, versus the organism being a mass
>>>>>>>of tissue that somehow does everything.  The driver is efficiency and
>>>>>>>simplicity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This assumes that life has already emerged in some unspecified way,
>>>>>>>and goes from there.  This is a different approach than Dawkin's
>>>>>>>Blind-Watchmaker arguments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ref:  "Simon_Herbert_A_The_Sciences_of_the_Artificial_3rd_ed" - The
>>>>>>>Architecture of Complexity.  New copies are available from MIT Press.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Even single-cell critters have levels of intelligence. Some people
>>>>>>suggest some level of consciousness.
>>>>>
>>>>>I would not go quite that far.  Resembles ancient paganism and
>>>>>pantheism, where behind every rock and plant there is a god of some
>>>>>sort. 
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>But rocks don't have DNA.
>>>
>>>Sure they do, from everything near.  But a god is better, but it was
>>>getting crowded.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Plants turn out to be pretty intelligent. A really good book is
>>>>Finding the Mother Tree by Suzanne Simard.
>>>
>>>I know of that book, but from a book review if I recall.  Made perfect
>>>sense.  There is all kinds of horse trading going on between species,
>>>no matter the size or kind.
>>>
>>>What I always tell people is that if you can see a critter, it's not
>>>actually important, being far outweighed by all the microscopic stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'd really like to see the fiberoptic-like fungi network seriously
>>>>instrumented.
>>>
>>>I recall seeing that.  There is a kind of clam that has calcite fibers
>>>embedded in its shell, and so has a crude form of vision even when
>>>closed tight.
>>>
>>>Joe
>>
>>Humans have upside-down retinas, with klugey light pipes.
>
>Yes, but what does it matter?  They seem to be doing well enough.

They are very fragile, barely glued to the back of the eyeball. I have
personal experiences with that.

I wonder why they evolved that way.