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From: John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: People Without Meaningful Lives Seek Power Over Others
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2025 07:17:10 +0700
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On Sat, 25 Jan 2025 08:01:36 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/24/2025 9:05 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/24/2025 7:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/24/2025 6:26 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 11:01:48 -0600, AMuzi 
>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/24/2025 10:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/24/2025 9:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 08:01:28 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 9:10 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:40:08 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 7:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 6:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 2:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 2:38 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 12:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 6:23 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/22/2025 10:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I think if we could do so, road taxes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all be on such a per-mile-driven system, maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modified additionally for the weight of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Texas tried it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dallasnews.com/news/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> investigations/2024/10/23/ a-look- at- texas-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> private-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toll-roads/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least in one case, it didn't go so well:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-tollway-288-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steep-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> price/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Since the tollway opened in November 2020, toll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rates
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have increased by more than 160 percent, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $11 for the full 20- mile round trip during peak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hours
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to $29 dollars now. "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That looks like an astonishingly bad agreement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the government and BTG corporation. But note 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that BTG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid only a third of the cost of construction, so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that "private" toll road was heavily 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subsidized by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxpayers. I'm pointing this out to those who say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transport should cover all its expenses via 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fares,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> zero subsidies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To try for a broader overview of road taxes: 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who never drive, and people who drive 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than others. Since the vast majority of road- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> related
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expenses are _not_ covered by gasoline taxes, why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should a non-driver pay the same road taxes as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mega-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> driver?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not tie those taxes the amount of roadway 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each driver, since that (as well as vehicle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> weight) is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a main determinant of roadway expenses? After 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> train fares are strongly affected by the the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rider's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> travel distance - IOW the amount of track used.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To allay the fears of the paranoid: The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't need to track your movements. You'd 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to submit evidence of your odometer total
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once per
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me the crew that says "Let the market
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decide"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be all in favor of this idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And please note, I'm not making this argument 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own benefit. Quite the opposite! As I've said, my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation has changed in a way that makes me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> driver far
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more annual miles than I ever did before, and I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it in an EV. I'm pretty sure I'm paying less 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than "my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share" of roadway expenses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many (I included) would sharply resist such 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motoring of my auto use. That's a political
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> barrier, not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a technical issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course you, and many others, would dislike 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scheme! So yes, like many things, it's a political
>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everybody wants better services but they don't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay for them. (Our classic example here is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> better law
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enforcement and more prisons, magically paid for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by "No
>>>>>>>>>>>>> new taxes!")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, people who do not own or use motor vehicles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consume myriad products all of which are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transported by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motor freight (even air & rail have 'last mile' 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delivery). They pay road tax with every purchase,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> markup.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course. And they'd still pay that way, through
>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sales tax and purchase price, as they do now. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> principle, their total tax burden should be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> less, since
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those who made private use of the roads would be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> paying a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit closer to their fair share.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems downright socialistic to charge non- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> same as drivers for roads whose potholes and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other wear
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the non-drivers never generate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The principle is sound, that we all bear the cost of
>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But I'm saying those who "share" it less should 
>>>>>>>>>>> pay less.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Non-drivers get less for their tax money.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In practice, many people are rubbed the wrong way by
>>>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>>>> taxed for things which never get finished, never 
>>>>>>>>>>>> meet
>>>>>>>>>>>> goals, never benefit the citizenry.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Such as Chicago property taxes, which are relatively
>>>>>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>>>>>> for US cities, pretending to 'graduate' 
>>>>>>>>>>>> illiterates at
>>>>>>>>>>>> $30,000 each per year. We all have our own egregious
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