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From: Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: [SR and synchronization] Cognitive Dissonances and Mental
 Blockage
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 08:22:57 +0200
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Am Dienstag000027, 27.08.2024 um 11:58 schrieb Python:
> Le 27/08/2024 à 07:32, Thomas Heger a écrit :
>> Am Montag000026, 26.08.2024 um 09:06 schrieb Mikko:
>> ...
>>>> Relativity requires mutally symmetric methods. So if you synchronize 
>>>> clock B with clock A, this must come to the same result, as if you 
>>>> would synchronize clock A with clock B.
>>>
>>> No, it does not mutually symmetric methods. Such methods make the
>>> presentation of the theory easier but do not affect the theory.
>>> Einstein chose a symmetric method because otherwise his text would
>>> be harder to read and understand.
>>
>> The very word 'relativity' requires mutually symmetric perspectives.
>>
>> This goes like this:
>>
>> you stand there, I stand here and I see you.
>>
>> Now the opposite should also be possible, but from your perspective.
>>
>> This means: you see me, while you would call yourself 'I', your own 
>> location 'here' and mine 'there'.
>>
>> This would give:
>>
>> you stand there, I stand here and I see you (but said by you and from 
>> your point of view).
>>
>>
>> Since both perspectives are of equal rights, we need to accept both 
>> views as valid, hence need mutually symmetric perspectives.
>>
>>>> But this requirement was not fullfilled in Einstein's scheme, 
>>>> because Einstein didn't take delay into consideration.
>>>
>>> So you say but cannot prove.
>>
>> Negative statements are difficult to prove.
>>
>> But I can ask you, to prove the opposite and prove, that you failed.
>>
>> So: where exactly did Einstein take delay into consideration in his 
>> 1905 paper??
> 
> In paragraph I.1 in Einstein's 1905 article you can read :
> 
> (*)   2AB/(t'_A - t_A) = c
> (**)  t_B - t_A = t'_A - t_B
> 
> In a setup with two mutually  at rest clocks at position A and B in
> a given system of reference. --> and <-- represents a light signal
> emission/reception, all time values are recorded by both clocks at
> time or receptions/re-emission:
> 
> Step 1:
> A-->               B
> t_A
> 
> Step 2:
> A               -->B
>                   t_B
> A               <--B
> 
> Step 3:
> A<--               B
> t'_A
> 
> So if you read the only equations in paragraph I.1,
> assuming clocks are synchronized (which is the point of
> this paragraph: state what it MEANS to be synchronized):
> 
> (*)   2AB/(t'_A - t_A) = c
> (**)  t_B - t_A = t'_A - t_B
> 
> t_B - t_A is a *delay* (between emission at A and reception at B)
> 
> t_'A - t_B is a *delay* (between emission at B and reception at A)
> 
> t'A - t_A is a *delay* (round trip time *delay* for a light signal
> going from A to B bounced back to A)
> 
>  From (*) you can get : t'_A - t_A = 2AB/c so another way to
> describe the same *delay* : twice the distance AB divided by c.
> 
> Clearly such a *delay* is present in paragraph I.1. THREE times
> as a term in an equation and ONCE as a term you can obtain by
> ONE step of basic algebra.

That was all not under dispute.

Sure, these equation would allow tro calculate the delay.

(despite t_B and t_A' would be unknown at the remote side 'B')

But anyhow..

The problem was, that Einstein never used this value of the delay to 
compensate the timing value at the local side.

If you - for instance - peep through a large telescope and look at a 
large clock on the Moon and see the clock show e.g. 12:00:00:00 GMT, 
then you would see a time too early, because your own clock would show 
12:00:01:00 GMT.

Now both clocks are actually in synch, even if the received view of the 
remote clock shows a different time then the local clock on Earth.

But Einstein failed to mention the required correction of the remote 
signal by adding the delay to the received time value.

This can only be interpreted, as if he didn't wanted to do that and 
leave the timing signal as received (what was wrong!!!).

TH