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Path: ...!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail From: Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity Subject: Re: vis-viva and vis-motrix Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2024 08:48:36 +0200 Lines: 454 Message-ID: <lm1ka1Fln9eU3@mid.individual.net> References: <Q3udnQ_BXvnebXX7nZ2dnZfqn_SdnZ2d@giganews.com> <66e96931$0$3271$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <Uj6dnY-qhbLyUHT7nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7RycnbrrTfx70W37nZ2dnZfqnPYAAAAA@giganews.com> <79qcnSfIffhX_m37nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@giganews.com> <t72dnUjHGp9d8Wn7nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com> <66F478BF.7DAE@ix.netcom.com> <uWOdnegwverCXWn7nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com> <66F59C62.58E2@ix.netcom.com> <aSidnQ0zvNRkW2j7nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@giganews.com> <llpuokFgheaU9@mid.individual.net> <81WdnRHj5_sE5mX7nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@giganews.com> <lluqp8F93kcU1@mid.individual.net> <arWdnUygcaauaWf7nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net twxs7yd4P2NGewcAFTQeGwX3O5O5qMM+2oaCaSdfkZZM0Gdgcl Cancel-Lock: sha1:QbyUmPk0T+uH61LoUGJDtQSzVJM= sha256:7smH/4jWn8FUTvNX/kCALruCNJ6MB2T6Q5j4B1/VzRc= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: de-DE In-Reply-To: <arWdnUygcaauaWf7nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com> Bytes: 18820 Am Montag000030, 30.09.2024 um 20:55 schrieb Ross Finlayson: > On 09/29/2024 10:20 PM, Thomas Heger wrote: >> Am Samstag000028, 28.09.2024 um 23:57 schrieb Ross Finlayson: >>> On 09/28/2024 01:57 AM, Thomas Heger wrote: >>>> Am Donnerstag000026, 26.09.2024 um 22:41 schrieb Ross Finlayson: >>>>> On 09/26/2024 10:39 AM, The Starmaker wrote: >>>>>> Ross Finlayson wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 09/25/2024 01:55 PM, The Starmaker wrote: >>>>>>>> Ross Finlayson wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 09/22/2024 11:37 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 09/22/2024 09:59 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 09/17/2024 11:41 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 09/17/2024 04:34 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does anybody even bother to think about vis-viva versus vis- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> motrix >>>>>>>>>>>>>> anymore, with regards to conservation, momentum, inertia, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> energy, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and potential and impulse energy? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course not. These are obsolete distinctions, >>>>>>>>>>>>> from a time when energy and momentum conservation was not >>>>>>>>>>>>> corectly >>>>>>>>>>>>> understood. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The matter was put to rest by Christiaan Huygens >>>>>>>>>>>>> by showing (for particle collisions) >>>>>>>>>>>>> that momentum conservation and energy conservation >>>>>>>>>>>>> are distinct conservation laws, that are both needed, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jan >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it usually considered at all that momentum and inertia >>>>>>>>>>>>>> change >>>>>>>>>>>>>> places with respect to resistance to change of motion and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rest >>>>>>>>>>>>>> respectively sort of back and forth in the theory since >>>>>>>>>>>>>> antiquity? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several times? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Au contraire, there is yet definition up, in the air, as it >>>>>>>>>>>> were. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Find any reference to fictitious forces and for a theory >>>>>>>>>>>> where the potential fields are what's real and the classical >>>>>>>>>>>> field's just a projection to a perspective in the middle, >>>>>>>>>>>> and anything at all to do with the plainly empirical or >>>>>>>>>>>> tribological with regards to our grandly theoretical, >>>>>>>>>>>> and one may find that the definitions of "inertia" and >>>>>>>>>>>> "momentum" with regards to resistance to changes in motion >>>>>>>>>>>> and resistance to changes in rest, as with regards to >>>>>>>>>>>> weight and as with regards to heft, have rotated each >>>>>>>>>>>> few hundred years, as with regards to the great schism >>>>>>>>>>>> whence Newton's vis-motrix, as with regards to the vis-insita >>>>>>>>>>>> and Leibnitz' vis-viva, as what for example can be read into >>>>>>>>>>>> from the Wikipedia on conservation of _energy_ and conservation >>>>>>>>>>>> of _momentum_ up to today, where for example, the >>>>>>>>>>>> "infinitely- many >>>>>>>>>>>> higher orders of theoretical acceleration are both formally >>>>>>>>>>>> non-zero and vanishing" because "zero meters/second >>>>>>>>>>>> equals infinity seconds/meter". >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, for a true centrifugal, and quite all about the derivative >>>>>>>>>>>> and anti-derivative as with regards to momentum, inertia, >>>>>>>>>>>> and kinetic energy, in a theory what's of course >>>>>>>>>>>> sum-of-histories >>>>>>>>>>>> sum-of-potentials with least action and gradient, or sum-of- >>>>>>>>>>>> potentials, >>>>>>>>>>>> it is so that the various under-defined concepts of the plain >>>>>>>>>>>> laws >>>>>>>>>>>> of after Newton, are as yet un-defined, and there are a variety >>>>>>>>>>>> of considerations as with regards to the multiplicities, or >>>>>>>>>>>> these singularities, and the reciprocities, of these >>>>>>>>>>>> projections. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, some of these considerations as since "Mediaeval Times", >>>>>>>>>>>> help reflect that Einstein's not alone in his, 'attack on >>>>>>>>>>>> Newton'. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Moment and Motion: a story of momentum >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH-Gh- >>>>>>>>>>> bBb7M&list=PLb7rLSBiE7F4eHy5vT61UYFR7_BIhwcOY >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Theories and principles, momentum and sum-of-histories >>>>>>>>>>> sum-of-potentials, conservation, momentum and inertia >>>>>>>>>>> and energy, fields and forces, Einstein's mechanics, >>>>>>>>>>> conservation of energy and conservation of momentum, >>>>>>>>>>> potential and fictitious and causal and virtual, mv, mv^2, >>>>>>>>>>> ordinary and extra-ordinary in the differential and inverses, >>>>>>>>>>> the standard curriculum and the super-standard, momentum >>>>>>>>>>> in definition, classical exposition, Bayes rule and a law of >>>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>>> numbers, law(s) of large numbers and not-Bayesian expectations, >>>>>>>>>>> numerical methods in derivations, uniqueness results later >>>>>>>>>>> distinctness results, law(s) of large numbers and continuity, >>>>>>>>>>> complete and replete, induction and limits, partials and limits, >>>>>>>>>>> the paleo-classical, platforms and planks, mass and weight >>>>>>>>>>> and heft, gravitational force and g-forces, measure and >>>>>>>>>>> matching measure, relativity and a difference between >>>>>>>>>>> rest and motion, heft, resistance to gravity, ideals and >>>>>>>>>>> billiard mechanics, wider ideals, Wallis and Huygens, >>>>>>>>>>> Nayfeh's nonlinear oscillations, addition of vectors, >>>>>>>>>>> observables and ideals, DesCartes' and Kelvin's vortices, >>>>>>>>>>> black holes and white holes, waves and optics, Euler, both >>>>>>>>>>> vis-motrix and vis-viva, d'Alembert's principle, Lagrange, >>>>>>>>>>> potential as integral over space, Maupertuis and Gauss >>>>>>>>>>> and least action and least constraint, Hamilton, >>>>>>>>>>> Hamiltonians and Bayesians, Jacobi, Navier and Stokes >>>>>>>>>>> and Cauchy and Saint Venant and Maxwell, statistical >>>>>>>>>>> mechanics and entropy and least action, ideal and real, >>>>>>>>>>> mechanical reduction and severe abstraction, ions and >>>>>>>>>>> fields and field theory, wave mechanics and virtual particles, >>>>>>>>>>> ideals and the ideal, the classical and monistic holism, paleo- >>>>>>>>>>> nouveau. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Much like the theories of "fall", "shadow", or >>>>>>>>>> "push" gravity, or the "shadow" or "umbral" >>>>>>>>>> gravity and for theories of real supergravity, >>>>>>>>>> as after Fatio and LeSage, as of theories of >>>>>>>>>> "pull" or "suck" gravity of Newton and the >>>>>>>>>> "rubber-sheet" or "down" gravity of Einstein, >>>>>>>>>> then the theories of vortices like DesCartes >>>>>>>>>> and Kelvin, and others, help reflect on the >>>>>>>>>> rectilinear and curvilinear, and flat and round, >>>>>>>>>> as with regards to deconstructive accounts of >>>>>>>>>> usual unstated assumptions and the severe >>>>>>>>>> abstraction and mechanical reduction, in as >>>>>>>>>> with regards to modern theories of mechanics. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Zero meters per second is infinity seconds per meter. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You know, zero meters per second is infinity seconds per meter, >>>>>>>>> and, any change of anything in motion has associated the >>>>>>>>> infinitely-many higher orders of acceleration, and, >>>>>>>>> it's rather underdefined and even undefined yet very >>>>>>>>> obviously clearly is an aspect of the mathematical model, >>>>>>>>> that Galileo's and Newton's laws of motion, sort of are >>>>>>>>> only a "principal branch" as it were, and, don't quite suffice. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course anything that would add infinitely-many higher >>>>>>>>> orders of acceleration mathematically to the theory, >>>>>>>>> of mechanics, the theory, would have to result being >>>>>>>>> exactly being the same as Galilean and Newtonian, >>>>>>>>> "in the limit", and for example with regards to >>>>>>>>> Lorentzians and these kinds of things. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's sort of similar with adding more and better >>>>>>>>> infinities and infinitesimals to mathematics. >>>>>>>>> The continuous dynamics of continuous motion >>>>>>>>> though and its mechanics, is a few layers above >>>>>>>>> a plain concept of the continuum, as with regards >>>>>>>>> to something like a strong mathematical platonism's >>>>>>>>> mathematical universe, being that making advances ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========