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From: Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: 1972 Legnano in the news
Date: 14 Nov 2024 15:43:10 GMT
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Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On 14 Nov 2024 11:35:13 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
> 
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 11/13/2024 11:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 15:01:19 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 11/13/2024 2:07 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 13:52:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 11/13/2024 11:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/13/2024 10:35 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 10:13:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/13/2024 4:27 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 03:35:27 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Nov 2024 21:29:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/12/2024 4:44 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just did a web search for "walking helmet", and got pages of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> helmets for babies and toddlers learning to walk.  I guess that's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing these days; I must be out of touch.  Perhaps one day we'll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generation unwilling to step outside without a helmet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That'll be a sad day indeed. But the general trend toward "Danger!
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Danger!" warnings is strong. At one time, Safe Kids recommended
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kid under age 10 be allowed to cross a street alone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And there's this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Bicycle-Safety.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Thanks, Jeff.)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand that some fear mongers actually want to ban bidirectional
>>>>>>>>>>>> side paths.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Didn't Frank argue that ALL bike lanes were dangerious. Or rather more
>>>>>>>>>>> dangerious then the road?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> No, I did not argue that.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> And John, much like Tom, you need to rely much less on your "memory" and
>>>>>>>>>> much more on actual quotes of what I've said.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Quit emulating Tom.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "Surprisingly, bike trails can be more dangerous than roads."
>>>>>>>>> "[-] you're more likely go to the emergency room from riding a mile on
>>>>>>>>> the bike trail than from riding a mile on the roads!"
>>>>>>>>> --Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> https://bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/FrankNFred014.htm
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> which is not "ALL bike lanes were dangerous. Or rather [ALL bike lanes
>>>>>>>> are] more dangerous then the road?"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> spelling corrected and context clarified.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> floriduh dumbassess 4th grade reading comprehension on display again
>>>>>>> I wonder if those two guys really think their obvious distortions of my
>>>>>>> positions are convincing anybody.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I quoted your exact words and provided documentation. How is that a
>>>>>> distortion?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Here it is again....
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "Surprisingly, bike trails can be more dangerous than roads."
>>>>>> "[-] you're more likely go to the emergency room from riding a mile on
>>>>>> the bike trail than from riding a mile on the roads!"
>>>>>> --Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> https://bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/FrankNFred014.htm
>>>>> 
>>>>> This guy is baffled by the distinction between "ALL are" and "can be."
>>>>> 
>>>>> And for some data, see Transportation Research Record 1636 Paper No.
>>>>> 98-0009, "Adult Bicyclists in the United States" by William E. Moritz
>>>>> 
>>>>> His research paper referenced three different surveys of bike users, the
>>>>> earliest of League of American Wheelmen members in 1974, one of about a
>>>>> thousand Washington State adults in 1994, and one of League of American
>>>>> Bicyclists members in 1996. Here are the resulting crash rates (per
>>>>> million km) by facility. The numbers are in chronological order, so LAW
>>>>> first, WA second, LAB third:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Major road with no facilities: 71, 69, 41
>>>>> Minor road with no facilities: 65, 82, 59
>>>>> Multiuse trail:                181, 91, 88.
>>>>> 
>>>>> All three surveys found multiuse trails to be much more dangerous than
>>>>> ordinary streets and roads, per kilometer (or mile) traveled.
>>>>> 
>>>>> And as I've mentioned here before, I'm seeing the same thing with
>>>>> reports of crashes among out club riders, even though only a small
>>>>> portion of our rides use such trails.
>>>>> 
>>>>> BTW, the last such crash was less than two weeks ago. The guy in
>>>>> question moved to the center of the trail to avoid a thick coating of
>>>>> leaves. But in the center were some chunks of broken tree branches, over
>>>>> an inch thick. He hit those and went down, breaking several ribs.
>>>>> 
>>>> Lets see... a guy is riding on a bike path and comes upon an
>>>> obstruction and assumes that he can ride over the obstruction but
>>>> can't and so falls....and that's the path's fault?
>>> I think it's more likely that he simply didn't see the chunks of wood. 
>>> He certainly should have been paying attention. He apparently forgot 
>>> that paths get many more leaves, branches and other debris.
>>> 
>>> I mentioned here that within the past year, one of my best riding 
>>> friends crashed on a bike path. In his case, tree roots had lifted 
>>> large, sharp ridges across the path surface. He said he was looking at 
>>> something off to the side and didn't see the ridges. I do know of some 
>>> of those ridges on two different bike trails that I occasionally use, 
>>> and I know to watch for them and warn friends when we approach them.
>>> 
>>> I also remember two different club members who crashed on a different 
>>> local bike trail due to slippery, slimy mud that had washed across the 
>>> trail where it had a significant side-to-side slope. One of those guys 
>>> suffered a dislocated shoulder in the crash.
>>> 
>>> Those things are all hazards that almost never occur on a normal road. 
>>> Car tires tend to remove debris, and road maintenance people don't allow 
>>> things like sharp ridges to remain in the pavement. Motorists would not 
>>> put up with those.
>>> 
>> They very much do, aka potholes are very much a motor traffic thing, ie
>> caused by the weight of traffic, weather doesn’t by its self seem to do
>> this even over decades.
>> 
>> Roads are most definitely more likely to have you don’t want to hit that,
>> sort of road defect as they have the mechanisms to cause it.
>> 
>> My old Parkway cycleway uses part of the of the old road in the centre of
>> the roundabout, complete with a very old bike icon any resurfacing would
>> have been pre 1959 when the roundabout was built.
>> 
>> And various old railway cycles ways have only needed resurfacing once
>> converted, and so on.
>> 
>> And roads very much do need cleaning or just get tire tracks in the lane
>> with debris to the sides and down the center of the lane, and debris is
>> again motor vehicle derived.
>> 
>> Get vegetation on cycleways absolutely, and painted or lightly segregated
>> can absolutely get debris sprayed into them.
>> 
>> My old Parkway doesn’t bar one flyover, which has a light sprinkling of
>> glass/rubber/plastics other sections are shielded by distance or
>> vegetation.
>> 
>> Roger Merriman
> 
> Resurfacing here:
> 
> https://www.floridastateparks.org/parks-and-trails/withlacoochee-state-trail
> 
> This is the trail where I was attacked a few years ago, but it's still
> one of my favorite trails. It took a long 50 mile drive in the truck
> to get there, but now there's a connecting bidirectional sidepath
> trail alongside a highway. I could actually ride to it from my usual
> starting location, but it would be 48 miles one way, just to get
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