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From: Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Nebula Finalists 2016
Date: 11 Jan 2025 03:03:16 GMT
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On 2025-01-10, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> On 1/10/25 06:38, Chris Buckley wrote:
>> On 2025-01-08, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>> On 1/8/25 08:24, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> writes:
>>>>> On 2025-01-07, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 6 Jan 2025 16:28:50 GMT, Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> January 6th was an epic security failure. But Pelosi did not want it
>>>>
>>>> Your attempts to shield Trump from responsibility for Jan 6 are
>>>> pathetic.
>>>>
>>> 	
>>> 	Of course they are pathetic.	
>>> 	Sane Republicans and Democrats agree on that.
>>> 	"Moscow" Mitch McConnel stated Trump at fault
>>>    multiple times and multiple times refused the Impeachment
>>> of the Felonius Trump for fear of losing MAGA support.
>>> Some MAGA probably believe what they think about this
>>> matter but the courts did not. Assaults on police officers
>>> can be traced to Trump's words at his rally and to his
>>> inaction when he was returned forcibly to his residence.
>>> In addiction his cronies had previously interfered with
>>> the possibility of quick reaction by the National Guard.
>>> 	
>>> 	In the face of all the evidence uncovered it is
>>> quite pathetic to attempt to shift blame for the January
>>> 6th Riot and Rebellion from Donald J Trump.
>>> 	
>>> 	bliss
>> 
>> So what set you off, Bliss?
>> 
>> I did not state or imply that Trump was blameless for January 6th.
>> Trump was very clearly shared in the blame.
>> 
>> I stated a good number of facts in my posts.  I made a good number of
>> claims. You did not dispute a single one of those facts. You did not
>> dispute a single one of those claims. You called my posts "pathetic" but
>> you did not supply a single shred of evidence in support of your claim.
>> 
>> Facts matter. You presented a list of mostly unrelated unsubstantiated facts
>> that can be discussed elsewhere. The only one related at all to the
>> current topic is the comment on cronies interfering with quick reaction
>> by the National Guard.
>> 
>> I assume you're talking about all the extra rules and protocols put in
>> place during the previous fall after the DC BLM riots?  You do realize
>> that all those were absolutely demanded by the Democrats, don't you?
>> Trump massively overreacted to the White House incursion the first day
>> of the riots. The White House incursion was much smaller than Jan 6th
>> (eg, only 60 Secret Service injured as opposed to 174 Capitol Police)
>> and unsuccessful (some barricades were passed and the President and
>> family had to spend time in the Presidential bunker, but nothing
>> else really other than hospital visits by the Secret Service.)
>> 
>> Trump ordered out the National Guard and other law enforcement
>> resources. They arrived days later in overwhelming numbers and were
>> almost completely unneeded. Local and Congressional Democrats
>> insisted, very reasonably IMO, that this absolutely could not happen
>> again, and that there needed to be constraints on Trump and the entire
>> process of invoking the National Guard.
>> 
>> There's no question that the new protocols delayed the arrival of
>> the National Guard a bit, but it wouldn't have changed the extent of the
>> Capitol takeover much, only the duration.  By the time the Capitol Police
>> got through their own internal bureaucracy messup and formally asked for
>> the National Guard, the rioters were already in substantial control of parts
>> of the building.  It still would have taken time for the National Guard to
>> get ready and arrive.
>> 
>> Chris
>
> 	By your remark you verify my assertions that defense of
> Trump is pathetic. The protocols delayed nothing.

That's just completely false. Time and again, the people actually
responsible for deploying the National Guard talked about the impact
of the protocols (among other things, that the Secretary of Defense
had to explicitly approve deployment).

If you want a concrete example the General in charge of actually
moving the National Guard troops had at least one contingent that was
boarded and was waiting on buses (under his own authority) for two to
three hours because they had neglected to notify him that the
Secretary had approved. Finally he got offical notification a bit
after 5pm and dispatched the troops. (The Secretary had approved
deployment at 3pm after the Capitol Police finally requested it at
2:30pm.)  There were massive communication failures that day!

> Trump sat on
> his little hands while the Riotors rampaged, calling for the
> immolation of the Speaker of the House and of the Vice-President
> at the urging of Donald J. Trump and no other.
>
> 	Nothng delayed the National Guard but the failure of
> Donald J. Trump to act. No one ordered the Military to clear
> out protestors a few days later for Trump to pose with a Bible
> in his hand, upside down of course since he never reads anything
> he cannot watch on TV. Nothing points up the non-existence or
> impotence of G-d like a blaphermer misusing the holy(?) text
> and not being blasted by lightening or at least struck with
> boils.

Have you read what the people actually responsible for the physical
deployment of National Guard said?  That's the DoD.  If you want to
really go down into the details of what happened, thanks to the
DoD Inspector General we have hundreds of pages of transcripts of
testimony from 60+ folks from the Secretary on down.  I gave a link to
one transcript previously.

Nobody from the upper ranks of the DoD was waiting on Trump to request
deployment. It was not his call and he was completely out of the
picture, by design and protocol.  They were waiting on the official
request from the law enforcement agency (Capitol Police), and then the
National Guard experts of the Dod would make the decision on
deployment. No involvement of Trump at all. That's as it should be;
the experts were in charge.  But they didn't do well.

How quickly we forget what the feelings were before, say on January
3rd.  A major worry then was that Trump WOULD deploy the National
Guard and Military on January 6th, and that then he would order them to
stop Biden's certification, basically starting a coup.  Trump was not
trusted.  That's why the 10 former Secretaries of Defense wrote their
op-ed warning that the military must stay out of it, and why the then
Secretary of Defense re-iterated the new protocol saying that any
National Guard deployment must be approved by him (not Trump).

The new protocols were aimed at Trump and closed out the loopholes
that enabled Trump to call out the National Guard during the summer riots.
"Training" was no longer an acceptable reason. But the new protocols
didn't work well in practice; they required too much knowledge and
communication in a chaotic active fire situation.  National Guard
response was delayed.

If the Capitol Police had requested and gotten deployment of the National
Guard in advance (as the DC mayor actually had, but just for traffic
control), January 6th would have been much different.

Chris