Path: ...!feeds.phibee-telecom.net!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Helmet efficacy test
Date: 31 Mar 2025 11:45:00 GMT
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <m4vdhsF28elU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <vs17id$21gj2$1@dont-email.me>
 <vs1m78$26rhi$2@dont-email.me>
 <vs2glq$35mlr$2@dont-email.me>
 <b5t9ujtrk4ph0rcl8stghedkbcmv2ho64q@4ax.com>
 <vs3uvg$la27$1@dont-email.me>
 <87iknsq422.fsf@mothra.hsd1.ma.comcast.net>
 <vs751k$3k5eb$1@dont-email.me>
 <87o6xkmwqn.fsf@mothra.hsd1.ma.comcast.net>
 <5rteuj1mr9a65enuv3jqj7sfmpgurreaqs@4ax.com>
 <vs92mm$1j1nq$2@dont-email.me>
 <m4qvduFb17oU1@mid.individual.net>
 <p83hujhub0kjjqbldnkenuod55mq8uu4nt@4ax.com>
 <vsa9hq$2ret2$1@dont-email.me>
 <fackujprf51nqihig9d1020qjr4gabi77s@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: individual.net g08zhOXjjetQ4CmWm6liEANOz3ijHLX2leyar6al8Bxz4uh4VW
Cancel-Lock: sha1:Zv2LSyK61Ac0U6mqlyZclpi1EHo= sha1:k3UfVnrQhK2JNebiKP1LnsPLb+8= sha256:H2Jtsrdaollsl8ywG7pDHWBiC6yliOpdXQVNOIP7/fU=
User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPad)
Bytes: 4744

Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Sat, 29 Mar 2025 22:16:26 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
> 
>> On 3/29/2025 8:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On 29 Mar 2025 19:19:26 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 3/29/2025 12:35 AM, John B. wrote:
> ...
> 
>>> O.K. Try https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-35728-x
>> 
>> What was your point, John? I ask because it seems you just grabbed 
>> another study at random. Roger's and my discussion was about cheap 
>> helmets vs. expensive ones. I didn't see that addressed. Perhaps when 
>> you post a link, you could tell us what part of the study was 
>> significant to our discussions?
>> 
>> I did see this: "Although rotational acceleration has been known to be 
>> relevant in cyclist injuries, it is still missing in standardized 
>> testing today. Using full body simulation, Wang et al.24 confirmed that 
>> rotational acceleration is indeed increased when wearing a helmet." That 
>> would seem to go back to the issue of a larger moment arm for glancing 
>> blows.
> 
> IMO, it's not just the larger moment arm, it's the enlarged probability.
> This is mostly caused by the bigger cross-section of a helmet, in
> comparison to a bare  head.  Neck muscles are generally strong enough to
> hold the head away from the ground or turn it away in the event of a
> fall. However, this distance is often smaller than that wat a helmet
> adds to size of the head.  
> 
> My head was uninjured in a serious bike crash years ago in which I broke
> my collarbone and half a dozen ribs. A helmet wouldn't have fitted
> between the asphalt and my head, though.  
> 
> Does this prove anything? I don't think so. It's just an anecdote,
> similar to those anecdotes told by bicycle helmet enthusiasts flooding
> the media with "how my helmet saved my life".  
> 
> But ... my experience illustrates one mechanism that might partially
> explain why bicycles helmets didn't deliver any of the advertised
> benefits, despite of all those great expectations.  Safety research
> perhaps should start analyzing risks caused or enlarged by bicycle
> helmets ernestly, such like as enlarged cross section, rotational
> traumata and risk compensation.
> 
> We should also not overlook the indirect damage caused by complicating
> and inconveniencing a means of transportation that is beneficial to
> health.
> 
I believe that Sydney and maybe others cities have pushed in the past to
exempt dockless/docked hire bikes from the law for that reason, though I
*think* bit like the e scooter in uk the police aren’t interested unless
someone really advertises them selfs to them!


>> 
>> And that paper, like almost all, does almost nothing to address the lack 
>> of reduction in TBI counts in the entire population. They do mention one 
>> paper by Olivier claiming large reductions in cyclist TBI in Australia 
>> after their mandatory helmet laws (MHLs). But Olivier is famous in other 
>> forums for his insistence that there was no reduction in cycling as a 
>> result of the MHLs. Copious survey and count data indicating large 
>> reductions in cycling, which would of course lead to large reductions in 
>> cyclist TBI.
>> 
>> In Olivier's world, prohibiting all cycling would be a great way of 
>> wiping out almost all cyclist TBI.
> 
Roger Merriman