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From: Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Helmet efficacy test
Date: 31 Mar 2025 17:44:54 GMT
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Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 22:16:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3/29/2025 8:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On 29 Mar 2025 19:19:26 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/29/2025 12:35 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 21:49:52 -0400, Radey Shouman
>>>>>>> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Could you point out a few flu vaccine studies, of the design and quality
>>>>>>>> that would convince you if they were instead about bike helmets?  All of
>>>>>>>> us have to die of something, congestive heart failure, pneumonia, flu,
>>>>>>>> whatever.  I guess you would want some evidence that with flu shots
>>>>>>>> (bike helmets) people actually live longer and better lives.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Perhaps -
>>>>>>> https://www.cdc.gov/flu-vaccines-work/php/effectiveness-studies/index.html
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/safest-bike-helmet
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And note the differences, please.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The data on flu vaccine effectiveness comes from counting actual flu
>>>>>> cases in the general population, in some cases among people
>>>>>> hospitalized, in other cases outpatients.
>>>>>> https://www.cdc.gov/flu-vaccines-work/php/vaccine-effectiveness/index.html
>>>>>> So that's counting what actually happened, as in "How many Americans
>>>>>> were infected with flu?" They find that vaccinated folks are much less
>>>>>> likely to catch the flu.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The helmet article's 3rd photo shows their method of measuring
>>>>>> "effectiveness." It has nothing to do with counting cases in the general
>>>>>> population, as in "How many Americans got TBI while riding?" Instead it
>>>>>> measures deceleration of a model of a human head (no body attached)
>>>>>> that's dropped onto an anvil.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If they evaluated helmets as they do flu vaccines, they'd have to say
>>>>>> "Hmm. Looks like no evidence for saving lives, but concussions have gone
>>>>>> up."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Also notice the article gives no specific data on the test. The impact
>>>>>> speed is 14 mph (from a 2 meter drop) and the deceleration is required
>>>>>> to be less than 300 gees to pass government certification.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And if you have an expensive, very lightweight helmet you can be sure
>>>>>> that the designers whittled away styrofoam as much as possible, leaving
>>>>>> enough to just barely pass that impact test.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> There are other folks doing testing, and cheap helmets still don’t do well,
>>>>> more expensive helmets have MIPs and other similar tech ie stuff that is
>>>>> intended to protect from rotating injuries. Or in the MTB world heavier
>>>>> burlier full face ones.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can’t imagine is any population data either way but I’d absolutely not
>>>>> assume cheap would be stronger, is an unwise assumption.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> O.K. Try https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-35728-x
>>> 
>>> What was your point, John? I ask because it seems you just grabbed 
>>> another study at random. Roger's and my discussion was about cheap 
>>> helmets vs. expensive ones. I didn't see that addressed. Perhaps when 
>>> you post a link, you could tell us what part of the study was 
>>> significant to our discussions?
>>> 
>>> I did see this: "Although rotational acceleration has been known to be 
>>> relevant in cyclist injuries, it is still missing in standardized 
>>> testing today. Using full body simulation, Wang et al.24 confirmed that 
>>> rotational acceleration is indeed increased when wearing a helmet." That 
>>> would seem to go back to the issue of a larger moment arm for glancing 
>>> blows.
>>> 
>>> And that paper, like almost all, does almost nothing to address the lack 
>>> of reduction in TBI counts in the entire population. They do mention one 
>>> paper by Olivier claiming large reductions in cyclist TBI in Australia 
>>> after their mandatory helmet laws (MHLs). But Olivier is famous in other 
>>> forums for his insistence that there was no reduction in cycling as a 
>>> result of the MHLs. Copious survey and count data indicating large 
>>> reductions in cycling, which would of course lead to large reductions in 
>>> cyclist TBI.
>>> 
>>> In Olivier's world, prohibiting all cycling would be a great way of 
>>> wiping out almost all cyclist TBI.
>> 
>> 
>> Sorry Frank, I hate to be the one to tell you but the world does
>> rotate around you.
>> 
>> What actually happened was that Radey Shouman asked a question and I
>> replied to it with two references. And subsequently with a third..
>> 
>> Then you leap into the fray. 
>> 
>> Note that I wasn't talking to you and as far as I can tell neither was
>> Giouman. 
>> 
>> But here you were blathering away.
> 
> Actually I was talking to Mr. Krygowski.  It seems to me that his
> standards for studies on flu shots are different to those for bike
> helmets, and I was curious as to what had convinced him of the efficacy
> and safety of flu shots.
> 
I guess one difference is Flu Vaccines are targeted at certain people not
population as whole, I get the vaccine as I’m eligible for few reasons.

And yes Flu Vaccines have a fairly low % though does vary year to year, and
is to quote Standford for the common good and all that.

> On every topic I can remember, save bike helmets and infrastructure,
> Mr. Krygowski tells us to believe the annointed experts.  On bike
> helmets, the experts are shills, charlatans, and fashion victims.
> Perhaps he is right, and bike helmets really are a unique blind spot in
> our expertariat.
> 
> For what it's worth I think Mr. Krygowski is closer to right than wrong
> on the subject of bike helmets, but that wasn't exactly my question.
> 
Roger Merriman