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From: John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Suspension losses
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 13:15:10 +0700
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On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 19:28:34 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/12/2025 7:19 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 11:08:45 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 1/11/2025 6:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/11/2025 4:11 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>> Am Fri, 10 Jan 2025 20:01:26 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/10/2025 5:18 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>>> This makes me reflect on the criticism of electronics in
>>>>>>> bicycles. ... But what about measuring the
>>>>>>> amount of power applied to the pedals, what about
>>>>>>> telling the cyclist
>>>>>>> who balanced he splits the power between left and right, by
>>>>>>> instrumenting the pedal or the bottom bracket?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, that can be done with enough sensors and
>>>>>> electronics. But it seems
>>>>>> like useless information to me. As with much computer
>>>>>> software, it seems
>>>>>> like "feature bloat." Why would anybody but a racer care?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there any reason to believe that old people like me
>>>>> don't have a need
>>>>> to care about training intensity, as a matter of
>>>>> principle?  How comes?
>>>>>
>>>>> When using my biycles as a middle aged, healthy adult I
>>>>> didn't care
>>>>> about racing, didn't train and didn't try to find company
>>>>> in cycling
>>>>> clubs, either. I didn't visit a gym until much later.
>>>>> Cycling was simply
>>>>> a way to get to work quickly. During vacations it was a more
>>>>> entertaining mode of transportation than the car. Fitness,
>>>>> strength and
>>>>> cardio fitness came as a side effect, slowly and almost
>>>>> unnoticed.
>>>>>
>>>>> This has changed. My cardio fitness is still better than
>>>>> what I know
>>>>> about a lot of people half my age. Nevertheless, it
>>>>> decreased over the
>>>>> years and it takes more and more effort to keep what you
>>>>> have not yet
>>>>> lost. As it is expected. The ability to measure power is
>>>>> helpful in
>>>>> finding the point at which intensity is sufficient and
>>>>> overload has not
>>>>> yet begun. This is even more true in combination with a
>>>>> heart rate
>>>>> monitor.
>>>>>
>>>>> So far, this is only about aging. But there is more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Accidents that led to damage to bones, joints and tendons
>>>>> in the past
>>>>> have consequences to be considered, too. There is a
>>>>> tendency to
>>>>> compensate weaknesses by bad postures, whithout noticing.
>>>>> This is both
>>>>> caused by damages and causing damages. This is to be
>>>>> avoided.  Measuring
>>>>> how power is applied by the feet helps detecting
>>>>> differences early,
>>>>> avoiding damage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Avoiding damage is far from useless.
>>>>
>>>> But individual power outputs from left and right legs? I
>>>> can't imagine much value from that measurement. In fact, I
>>>> don't believe power measurement is necessary for fitness. I
>>>> judge by feel. It has the advantage of naturally
>>>> compensating for days when I feel stronger or weaker. And
>>>> it's organic!  ;-)
>>>>
>>>>> My experiences with mechanical devices are at least as
>>>>> mixed as those
>>>>> with electronic devices.  Some very complicated electronic
>>>>> devices that
>>>>> I bought decades ago still work. The same applies to some
>>>>> that I built
>>>>> myself a long time ago.  With devices that contained both
>>>>> electronic and
>>>>> mechanical parts, the fault was more often on the
>>>>> mechanical side.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anecdotical, I know.
>>>>
>>>> To me, a big advantage is the ability to _look_ at a
>>>> mechanical device and _see_ what's wrong. That, and the fact
>>>> I can often affect a repair. I hate the Kleenex ethic -
>>>> "It's no good any more, just throw it away."
>>>>
>>>>>> Two days ago, my kid asked me to figure out why an
>>>>>> electric blanket
>>>>>> wasn't working. The controller refused to turn on. I
>>>>>> opened it and
>>>>>> confirmed that it was getting supply voltage. Beyond
>>>>>> that, the pile of
>>>>>> dozens of surface mount electronic components was
>>>>>> incomprehensible to
>>>>>> me. I suspect Jeff might have been able to diagnose it,
>>>>>> but not me.
>>>>>> Here's a photo:
>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/54259119364/
>>>>>> in/dateposted-public/
>>>>>> I know electric blankets are old technology. I know they
>>>>>> functioned well
>>>>>> for decades with maybe a rheostat and perhaps a couple of
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> components. Why add unrepairable complexity?
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't know.  We use devices like the blue one in the
>>>>> following picture.
>>>>> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/
>>>>> W%C3%A4rmflasche1.jpg>
>>>>> and better isolating blankets. No electricity necessary. :-)
>>>>
>>>> :-) But you imply that _I'm_ the one insufficiently modern?
>>>>
>>>>> A few lights in our house are switched by set of 2 x 3
>>>>> inexpensive
>>>>> wireless sockets including two remote controls, that I
>>>>> bought eleven
>>>>> years ago. I've still to replace the batteries. Two of the
>>>>> sockets are
>>>>> still spares, I have a replacement cell for the remote
>>>>> controls stored
>>>>> which might live even longer. Standard type, used in
>>>>> garage openers and
>>>>> burglar alarms, too. Selecting a channel and paring one of
>>>>> the four
>>>>> buttons of a remote control with one or more of the
>>>>> sockets is as easy
>>>>> as pie, using a line of dip switches inside those
>>>>> devices.  Quite
>>>>> similar to pairing switches and derailleur on our bicyles.
>>>>>
>>>>> While I avoid having essential functionality in my house
>>>>> depend on
>>>>> wireless connections, I enjoy having the option, for
>>>>> certain use cases,
>>>>> though.
>>>>
>>>> Yuck.
>>>>
>>>> I bought a new pedestal fan for our back patio last year.
>>>> I've found a fan to be the best defense against mosquitos.
>>>> The previous one still runs, but exposure to sunlight
>>>> destroyed its plastic finger protection screen.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, the new one comes with a remote control, roughly the
>>>> size of a snack cracker. Who needs a remote to adjust a fan?
>>>> I rejected ceiling fans with remotes when I was shopping,
>>>> too. It's something to lose, something whose battery will
>>>> die, and something whose electronics will go bad and be
>>>> unrepairable.
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> When I see a 50 year old, perfect looking bicycle, I think:
>>>>> That one must have been standing around inside most of the
>>>>> time, perhaps
>>>>> for a reason.
>>>>
>>>> My favorite bike is a young 39 years. It looks perfect, in
>>>> part because I had it (and my wife's matching one) stripped
>>>> and powder coated a couple years ago. Too many excellent
>>>> memories to let it go.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not only the electronics infestation of consumer products.
>>>
>>> I brought food to make girlfriend's birthday dinner last
>>> evening and I cook in her kitchen regularly but sometimes
>>> the modern kitchen stove is a real impediment.
>>>
>>> [break for electronics rant: Her new kitchen stove, as her
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