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From: Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: PTD was the most-respected of the AUE regulars ...
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 15:42:14 -0700
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occam submitted this idea :
> On 28/07/2024 21:10, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 14:57:29 +0100, Hibou
>> <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> Le 28/07/2024 à 10:57, occam a écrit :
>>>> On 27/07/2024 18:52, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>>>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/07/24 20:32, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [PTD] would pronounce that something someone else had said was
>>>>>>> wrong, when it wasn't and continue to insist on it even when several
>>>>>>> people had produced evbidence that it was true.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The Australian coat of arms shows a kangaroo and an emu holding a
>>>>>> shield. These two animals have something in common: they cannot walk
>>>>>> backwards. Their anatomy does not allow it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That was PTD's problem. When caught in an error, he was completely
>>>>>> incapable of backing out. His only option was to dig a deeper hole.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> He's the only person I've encountered with such a severe form of this
>>>>>> disability. Some others came close, but they got out of the impasse by
>>>>>> responding with a non sequitur.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Anecdote: The great mathmetician/statistician Karl Pearson was
>>>>> also the first editor of Biometrika (for 35 years).  He described
>>>>> what we know as the Pearson chisquared test -- but for a few
>>>>> years, he insisted that it had 3 degrees of freedom, not 1.  And
>>>>> he refused to publish the folks who argued (what he finally
>>>>> conceded) for 1.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is frequent a characteristic of Aspergers Syndrome (which
>>>>> is a diagnosis no longer in the book; too bad).
>>>> 
>>>> Whoa!  I'm no expert on Aspergers, but that is a big leap. There are
>>>> half a dozen cognitive biases that could equally explain Pearson's
>>>> behaviour.  Have a sift:
>>>> 
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
>>>> 
>>>> Just for starters:
>>>> 
>>>> - Escalation of commitment:
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment>
>>>> 
>>>> - Illusory truth effect:
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect>
>>>> 
>>>> -  Big Ego. As the editor of Biometrika for 35 years, he would certainly
>>>> not like to be corrected.
>>> 
>>> Yes, I don't think it's peculiar to Asperger's or autism. People often 
>>> adopt positions without exploring them thoroughly, commit themselves, 
>>> and then feel obliged to defend that commitment, even when it turns out 
>>> they're wrong.
>>> 
>>> It's not easy to admit one is wrong, but it has its advantages. It 
>>> brings discussion to a halt, instead of prolonging it embarrassingly, 
>>> and one gains Brownie points for valuing the truth.
>> 
>> Consider this combination:  Asserting something that is not true
>> is LYING. 
>
> ...unless you are not aware of it being not true. If the 'fact' you are
> asserting is wrong, and you are not aware of it, you are NOT lying. You
> are just being ignorant.
>
>> LYING is very bad, like, a bad sin.
>
> Personal question - are you a Catholic by any chance, Rich? Only
> Catholics lose sleep over 'sin'.  I don't.  I do lose sleep if I
> knowingly lie, but I do not consider myself a sinner.  Sin is a Catholic
> invention, for Catholics, by Catholics.

I don't think you are understanding Rich's post.  He isn't describing 
his feelings, he is describing the clinical issue of Aspergers from the 
point of view of the symptomatic individual.   Both the issue of the 
"sin" and the whether an accidental untruth is a lie is part of what 
they experience, according to his research and his prior contact with 
an actual symptomatic individual.

>
>> So one is careful
>> in what one asserts.  And one does not want to admit to the 
>> sin of being wrong. This creates a certain internal conflict, 
>> because there is also the notion that a 'sin' should be something
>> that was intentional; and the original mis-statement is not
>> something that one regrets. 
>> 

Please read carefully.

/dps

-- 
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
  Viktor Frankl