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From: John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Job Offer
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2025 14:10:39 +0700
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On Sun, 16 Mar 2025 22:40:26 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Mar 2025 23:33:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 3/16/2025 4:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>  
>>> Students don't attend college to learn much that will later be useful.
>>> At best, students learn the basics.  ...
>>> 
>>> I'm not going to attempt to assign the blame or offer solutions for
>>> the problem.  Well, maybe just a small attempt.  (Frank will probably
>>> hate me).  Most colleges are designed to manufacture academics who
>>> will eventually become teachers.  
>>
>>Perhaps that's true. I can't speak for "most colleges" and I have close 
>>knowledge about only a few fields of study, based on my experiences, 
>>those of my kids and siblings. IOW, a small sample. Engineering, 
>>chemistry, computer science, nursing and poetry.
>>
>>So you may be correct about majors such as history, political science, 
>>philosophy, art appreciation etc. But based on that small sample of 
>>field I listed, I'd say you're wrong.
>>
>>About my program, you're 100% flat wrong about the "designed to 
>>manufacture academics." As one piece of evidence, we rarely offered 
>>junior and senior level courses in the daytime. Why? Because by the time 
>>they were juniors, most of our students were already employed in their 
>>field at least part time. That's largely why I ended up teaching so many 
>>evening courses.
>
>Ok, I'm wrong.  I guess things have changed when I wasn't watching.
>
>"Education was once the No. 1 major for college students. Now it's an
>afterthought."
><https://www.cbsnews.com/news/education-majors-colleges-decline-teacher-pay/>
>"Even as the population of college students has increased by 150%
>since 1970, the number of bachelor's degrees in education has
>plummeted by almost 50% - a steeper drop than that for English,
>literature and foreign language majors."
>
>Or, maybe the college students I've known follow a different star. All
>I have to offer is anecdotal evidence.  The San Lorenzo Valley tends
>to attract students because it's a low income housing area.  Few of
>them have jobs.  I'm a member of two local amateur radio clubs, and a
>Linux computer club. These tend to attract UCSC students and
>graduates.  I know two graduates who went on to obtain their
>doctorates and are now doing some kind of teaching at UCSC.
>
>>And to get specific: I developed our Robotics course and laboratory in 
>>1986, when industrial robots were first beginning to surge. We used real 
>>industrial robots (not laboratory toys or online virtual robots) and I 
>>attended a robotics school along with a roomful of engineers from Ford. 
>>I consulted with them about what our course should contain, and as 
>>always I consulted with our Industrial Advisory Committee. One major 
>>piece of advice was to NOT build a course on how to design robots, or 
>>the details of the mathematical transforms used to control the robot's 
>>many joints, etc. The advice was to put heavy emphasis on how to use a 
>>purchased robot in practical ways to get a task done robotically. (As I 
>>told my students: There may have been a few dozen engineers in the U.S 
>>designing robots. There would probably be need for thousands of 
>>engineers who knew how to use them.)
>>
>>And indeed, the wife of one of my graduates (they married when both were 
>>seniors in my program) came back to visit and explained how her husband 
>>had gotten great recognition in his company when he took over and 
>>succeeded at a robotics project that a previous engineer had called 
>>"Impossible." Her husband told her "It's exactly like the big project we 
>>did in Krygowski's lab!"
>>
>>Of course a person must not stop learning upon graduation. But as the 
>>wife of another graduate relayed to me, "My husband said 'Krygowski 
>>taught us how to learn.'"
>>
>>I know there are engineering programs that study robotics more as 
>>theoretical systems. We were purposely much more practical. The same 
>>philosophy was at work in the rest of our curriculum.
>
>Sorry, but I have very limited experience with robotics (CNC) and
>can't really comment on robotics.
>
>>I can't give as much detail about the other degrees and educations 
>>earned by other family members and listed above. I won't compromise 
>>their privacy, but I'll note that each of the people is professionally 
>>successful in their field (even the poet) and could not have had that 
>>success without their education.
>
>True.  A diploma, a good education and relevant experience makes
>success and higher earnings far more likely.
>  
><https://www.umassglobal.edu/news-and-events/blog/how-college-impacts-salary-and-future-earning-potential>
>"According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor, bachelor’s degree holders earn
>68% more than those with only a high school diploma."
>
>"Earnings and Unemployment rates by educational attainment, 2023"
><https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2024/data-on-display/education-pays.htm>
>
>>Again, I agree education is a tool. But a workman who attacks a job 
>>without the necessary tool is likely to be damned inefficient.
>
>Education can also be a weapon.  Education can be used for the general
>good and for personal benefit.  However, it can also be used for evil
>and personal detriment.  For example, I consider working on military
>devices and weapons of mass destruction to be in the latter category.
>

Why ever did you immigrate to the U.S.  At war with someone.some where
for 90% or more of their history. Even Israel has to stretch to keep
up with them :-)

>Drivel:  I have a headache and need to stop writing.
-- 
Cheers,

John B.