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From: John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: People Without Meaningful Lives Seek Power Over Others
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2025 07:26:07 +0700
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On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 11:01:48 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/24/2025 10:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/24/2025 9:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 08:01:28 -0600, AMuzi 
>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/23/2025 9:10 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:40:08 -0600, AMuzi 
>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 7:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 6:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 2:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 2:38 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 12:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 6:23 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/22/2025 10:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I think if we could do so, road taxes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all be on such a per-mile-driven system, maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> modified additionally for the weight of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Texas tried it
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dallasnews.com/news/
>>>>>>>>>>>> investigations/2024/10/23/ a-look- at- texas- 
>>>>>>>>>>>> private-
>>>>>>>>>>>> toll-roads/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> at least in one case, it didn't go so well:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-tollway-288- 
>>>>>>>>>>>> steep-
>>>>>>>>>>>> price/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Since the tollway opened in November 2020, toll 
>>>>>>>>>>>> rates
>>>>>>>>>>>> have increased by more than 160 percent, going from
>>>>>>>>>>>> $11 for the full 20- mile round trip during peak 
>>>>>>>>>>>> hours
>>>>>>>>>>>> to $29 dollars now. "
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That looks like an astonishingly bad agreement 
>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>> the government and BTG corporation. But note that BTG
>>>>>>>>>>> paid only a third of the cost of construction, so 
>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>> that "private" toll road was heavily subsidized by
>>>>>>>>>>> taxpayers. I'm pointing this out to those who say 
>>>>>>>>>>> rail
>>>>>>>>>>> transport should cover all its expenses via fares, 
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> zero subsidies.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To try for a broader overview of road taxes: There 
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> people who never drive, and people who drive far more
>>>>>>>>>>> than others. Since the vast majority of road-related
>>>>>>>>>>> expenses are _not_ covered by gasoline taxes, why
>>>>>>>>>>> should a non-driver pay the same road taxes as a 
>>>>>>>>>>> mega-
>>>>>>>>>>> driver?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why not tie those taxes the amount of roadway used by
>>>>>>>>>>> each driver, since that (as well as vehicle 
>>>>>>>>>>> weight) is
>>>>>>>>>>> a main determinant of roadway expenses? After all,
>>>>>>>>>>> train fares are strongly affected by the the rider's
>>>>>>>>>>> travel distance - IOW the amount of track used.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To allay the fears of the paranoid: The government
>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't need to track your movements. You'd simply
>>>>>>>>>>> need to submit evidence of your odometer total 
>>>>>>>>>>> once per
>>>>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me the crew that says "Let the market 
>>>>>>>>>>> decide"
>>>>>>>>>>> should be all in favor of this idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And please note, I'm not making this argument for my
>>>>>>>>>>> own benefit. Quite the opposite! As I've said, my 
>>>>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>>>> situation has changed in a way that makes me 
>>>>>>>>>>> driver far
>>>>>>>>>>> more annual miles than I ever did before, and I'm 
>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>> it in an EV. I'm pretty sure I'm paying less than "my
>>>>>>>>>>> share" of roadway expenses.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Many (I included) would sharply resist such government
>>>>>>>>>> motoring of my auto use. That's a political 
>>>>>>>>>> barrier, not
>>>>>>>>>> a technical issue.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course you, and many others, would dislike such a
>>>>>>>>> scheme! So yes, like many things, it's a political 
>>>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>>> Everybody wants better services but they don't want to
>>>>>>>>> pay for them. (Our classic example here is better law
>>>>>>>>> enforcement and more prisons, magically paid for by "No
>>>>>>>>> new taxes!")
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, people who do not own or use motor vehicles 
>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>> consume myriad products all of which are 
>>>>>>>>>> transported by
>>>>>>>>>> motor freight (even air & rail have 'last mile' truck
>>>>>>>>>> delivery). They pay road tax with every purchase, 
>>>>>>>>>> plus a
>>>>>>>>>> markup.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course. And they'd still pay that way, through 
>>>>>>>>> normal
>>>>>>>>> sales tax and purchase price, as they do now. But in
>>>>>>>>> principle, their total tax burden should be less, since
>>>>>>>>> those who made private use of the roads would be 
>>>>>>>>> paying a
>>>>>>>>> bit closer to their fair share.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It seems downright socialistic to charge non-drivers 
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> same as drivers for roads whose potholes and other wear
>>>>>>>>> the non-drivers never generate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The principle is sound, that we all bear the cost of
>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I'm saying those who "share" it less should pay less.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Non-drivers get less for their tax money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In practice, many people are rubbed the wrong way by 
>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>> taxed for things which never get finished, never meet
>>>>>>>> goals, never benefit the citizenry.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Such as Chicago property taxes, which are relatively 
>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>> for US cities, pretending to 'graduate' illiterates at
>>>>>>>> $30,000 each per year. We all have our own egregious
>>>>>>>> examples I'm sure from potholes to bicycle paths.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK, I'll stop complaining unfair road taxes on non- 
>>>>>>> drivers
>>>>>>> if you stop complaining about Chicago student 
>>>>>>> performance.
>>>>>>> Deal?   ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's merely an example with which I am very familiar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No different from Baltimore (arguably the worst public
>>>>>> school system in USA) or Hartford:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://ctmirror.org/2024/09/29/cant-read-high-school- 
>>>>>> ct-hartford/
>>>>>
>>>>> When I was in the Air Force I had a guy that was much 
>>>>> the same - he
>>>>> could read but didn't understand what it meant.
>>>>>
>>>>> He was getting along well until I sent him off to take 
>>>>> his "skill
>>>>> level"  test and he failed it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now like most supervisors I had, by asking my people who 
>>>>> took the
>>>>> skill tests to sit down and write down  as many of the 
>>>>> questions as
>>>>> they could remember as soon as they got back from taking 
>>>>> the test,
>>>>> accumulated most all of the test questions, which I had 
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