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Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!news.szaf.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: *Hemidactylus* <ecphoric@allspamis.invalid> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Making your mind up Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 00:24:34 +0000 Organization: University of Ediacara Lines: 79 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <qKSdnVxx7srfHaj7nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com> References: <3udo2jd1tkcimin2bf3b3h6klc35s4cppe@4ax.com> <v0k2vn$kua7$2@dont-email.me> <0g1t2j12g8lvbdlbgshu60t7vk8a1r579v@4ax.com> <v0ogsp$1r7cd$1@dont-email.me> <5kjv2jpbr4805jm7hr0sfpnetns066fiu9@4ax.com> <v0p85i$692a$1@solani.org> <56j03jtgl91alj4s4lvgkcrsfu2ikh6mqj@4ax.com> <v10iqi$al6e$1@solani.org> <mvj73j5cn44c0udjda7rnr001vustff2cq@4ax.com> <v10o4k$ani4$3@solani.org> <r4583j51957ij439sn447pei0ecj28nss0@4ax.com> <-BmdnS3M_KEyXKn7nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@giganews.com> <770a3jlntggrb9nf236p0of7306f13c8kn@4ax.com> <v132gq$kkdc$1@dont-email.me> <2cfd29fbf9a18164e719d77032355609@www.novabbs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="50681"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: NewsTap/5.5 (iPhone/iPod Touch) To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:O309nFECNS/s0WOhB/SdHgufosY= Return-Path: <poster@giganews.com> X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id A6B8A229782; Fri, 3 May 2024 20:24:44 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D89B229765 for <talk-origins@ediacara.org>; Fri, 3 May 2024 20:24:42 -0400 (EDT) by moderators.individual.net (Exim 4.97) for talk-origins@moderators.isc.org with esmtp (envelope-from <poster@giganews.com>) id 1s33Cm-00000002i2a-3jmY; Sat, 04 May 2024 02:24:45 +0200 by egress-mx.phmgmt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6105760359 for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Sat, 4 May 2024 00:24:03 +0000 (UTC) by serv-1.ord.giganews.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58A64406A3 for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Fri, 3 May 2024 19:24:34 -0500 (CDT) by serv-1.i.ord.giganews.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id 4440OYR5009731; Fri, 3 May 2024 19:24:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: serv-1.i.ord.giganews.com: news set sender to poster@giganews.com using -f X-Path: news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail X-NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 May 2024 00:24:34 +0000 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Original-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Bytes: 6752 LDagget <j.nobel.daggett@gmail.com> wrote: > Arkalen wrote: > > [ chomp chomp chomp ] > >> I feel you're maybe seeing the philosophical objection to free will >> based on determinism but you're missing a parallel one involved in >> random choice. Basically many people feel that a choice being random >> isn't "free will" anymore than it being predetermined is. That "free >> will" still requires decisions to be under our control somehow, which >> randomness negates. Like "free will" involves "free" and "will" and >> determinism gets in the way of the "free" part but randomness gets in >> the way of the "will" part. > >> Put another way, if we translate it into the legal domain (the area >> where notions of "free will" have actual practical relevance), someone >> with a mental disorder that leads them to predictably and unavoidably do > >> a bad thing would be considered legally incompetent - but someone with a > >> mental disorder that lead them to behave randomly would be considered >> just as incompetent. Either way the issue is not having control over >> one's actions. > > > Please reread that. It's frustratingly pointless for being a combination > of meta arguments and ridiculously literal parsing. I know you can do > better. > I thought Arkalen was saying something I was trying to get at in my own reply to Bob but Arkalen did it better. > > Few adherents of a dualism that includes some metaphysical realization of > "free will" go so far as to deny that "choices" can be influenced by > environmental factors. That some subset of those factors that coincide > with > the timing of making a choice are "random" is pretty much a given. To > what extent you are influenced by a blue car versus a white car driving > past you influences a choice you are about to make may be small or large, > but the color is essentially random with respect to the elements of most > of the sort of choices you might be challenged to make, for example what > to order off of a lunch menu. And if you have some objection to thinking > that some car of a different color can influence such a choice, use your > imagination to find something else that could be an influence and fill in > the obvious blanks on a backwards causation chain as per below. > > The back chain of dependencies that lead to what car passes you when has > a fading sense of determinism, by which I mean that far enough back, some > critical factor, perhaps weather, was essentially random but was > consequential > in determining some future event that had influence upon a choice you > are faced with. > > This should be a recognized given in all discussions of free will. Nothing > > in this is controversial, new, or surprising. No discussion of determinism > can honestly deny that in our universe, randomness creeps in. It's a > given. > And so discussions that deny it are grossly tedious. Randomness in > causation > is a given. Choices have myriad influences of varying scale. > I think contingency itself important from what I recall of Gould. And randomness is a thing, but it does crap all as a starting point for free will. May as well be rolling dice when deciding to commit murder or not. > > The free will question is, what influence is there that is not material? > If one is a dualist or libertarian. They have no monopoly on free will. Compatibilism exists. Dennett made a career out of it. > > How does that non-material influence act upon the material brain, by what > force or mechanism? What is the evidence? > Doesn’t matter if one can make deterministic arguments for free will. I’m agnostic somewhat.