Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Let's hide the bicyclists behind parked cars. What could go wrong?
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:38:57 +0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 123
Message-ID: <qo59ojtqi9eonmhrvdve97stbd7v92u402@4ax.com>
References: <vlovcv$3evv6$1@dont-email.me> <vlrru9$6mcv$2@dont-email.me> <vls0j5$7itq$2@dont-email.me> <LMfgP.696943$0O61.85720@fx15.iad> <vlsb8h$9dsn$1@dont-email.me> <bQAgP.620065$DYF8.422566@fx14.iad> <vlv1ln$r4s1$5@dont-email.me> <a267oj5krm8imvomh558n49fs27ktes44i@4ax.com> <mnd7oj9a1q9d30br3uo9ncn13pueh9o5a4@4ax.com> <vm143m$18tis$1@dont-email.me> <luiqioF8bbcU1@mid.individual.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 05:39:01 +0100 (CET)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="8c0459f644e3fb872aec1d917006d25b";
	logging-data="1748168"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18DwIjZPH+3mXqN+N+ZRA54kEgXVPw86Rg="
User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.10.32.1212
Cancel-Lock: sha1:Y/2g7hDJVN25KsiIUhnE/AtOkww=
Bytes: 7427

On 12 Jan 2025 21:30:00 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/12/2025 7:54 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 17:41:30 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 1/11/2025 3:50 PM, cyclintom wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri Jan 10 18:42:07 2025 Frank Krygowski  wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
>>>>>>> that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
>>>>>>> Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
>>>>>>> But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
>>>>>>> per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
>>>>>>> streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
>>>>>>> ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out
>>>>>> while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
>>>>> 
>>>>> I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
>>>>> lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
>>>>> pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
>>>>> the next lane over.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
>>>>> 8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
>>>>> (common around here) with no shoulder (also common).  I absolutely would
>>>>> be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
>>>>> alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
>>>>> your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
>>>> 
>>>> Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
>>>> trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
>>>> shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
>>>> road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of  them
>>>> (measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
>>>> statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
>>>> Lane"  in those circumstances.
>> 
>> In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist. 
>> But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles 
>> per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one 
>> lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is 
>> motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble. 
>> I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take 
>> notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
>>> Given Krygowski's propensity to lie and exaggerate...
>> 
>> That's bullshit.
>> 
>>> coupled with his
>>> insistence that riding on bidirectional bike paths is dangerous...
>> 
>> And that's exaggerated.
>> 
>>> I'd
>>> bet there's zero occasions of him ever riding along at 18 MPH ten feet
>>> in front of an 18 wheeler on an unobstructed 60+ mph highway. 
>> 
>> Mr. Tricycle of course will not believe this.  But some details, for 
>> those interested:
>> 
>> I was not always so adamant about taking the lane. My "Road to Damascus" 
>> moment came one summer day. Our bike club was hosting a visit by a group 
>> of about 20 Russian cyclists, riding from Chicago to DC. Various club 
>> members (including us) put them up overnight.
>> 
>> Anyway, some of us had ridden west to meet them and escort them in on a 
>> rainy day. But they were behind schedule, and I had to turn back because 
>> I was teaching an evening class that day. One other friend turned back 
>> with me. This was on Route 165, west of North Lima, Ohio. One lane in 
>> each direction, no shoulders at that time (instead, dropoffs at many 
>> locations), speed limit 55 mph, and plenty of truck traffic then as now.
>> 
>> It began to really really pour. At that time, Rt. 165 was in very bad 
>> shape, with serious potholes, especially at the right edge of the lane. 
>> We were still attempting to share the lane, and trucks and cars were 
>> passing with maybe a couple feet of clearance.
>> 
>> But the potholes became full of water, meaning it was impossible to tell 
>> if the puddles directly ahead were 1/2" deep or 3" deep. It was obvious 
>> that I might drop into a pothole and crash leftward in front of a car or 
>> truck. I told my friend that I thought we needed to ride lane center, 
>> where the pavement was much smoother. I was nervous about it, and she 
>> was even more nervous, but what we were doing was obviously too 
>> dangerous. We moved left.
>> 
>> Soon a semi rig came up from behind as oncoming cars occupied the 
>> opposing lane. We nervously held our position, and I still remember the 
>> sound of the semi's brakes. But the driver slowed to our speed, waited 
>> until it was clear and passed using the opposing lane. He didn't honk, 
>> he didn't demonstrate any anger. He just drove safely around us.
>> 
>> Since that moment, the same scenario (without the rain, usually) has 
>> occurred hundreds of times.
>> 
>I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
>Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
>been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
>to pass if safe to do so.
>

You mean in traffic traveling as much as 90 kmh the bicycle traveling,
an average speed of 3o kmh should travel in the middle of the lane?

I don't think I'd care to visit your country :-)

-- 
Cheers,

John B.