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Path: ...!news.mixmin.net!news2.arglkargh.de!news.karotte.org!news.szaf.org!inka.de!mips.inka.de!.POSTED.localhost!not-for-mail From: Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> Newsgroups: sci.lang Subject: Re: This must be Bulgarian (audiobook?) -- Russian title is: =?UTF-8?Q?=D0=93=D1=91=D0=B4=D0=B5=D0=BB=D1=8C=2C?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=D0=95=D1=88=D0=B5=D1=80=2C?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=D0=91=D0=B0=D1=85?= Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 20:57:46 -0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <slrnv4fh6a.2p6a.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de> References: <v272k2$237kg$2@dont-email.me> <v27div$25kbg$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 17 May 2024 20:57:46 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: lorvorc.mips.inka.de; posting-host="localhost:::1"; logging-data="93218"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@mips.inka.de" User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (FreeBSD) Bytes: 3977 Lines: 62 On 2024-05-17, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote: >> The Russian title is: Гёдель, Ешер, Бах: Эта бесконечная гирлянда > > I don't know why, but the Russian title shows first, then the Bulgarian, > where they spell it Гьодел. Russian ё normally spells /jo/; here it > seems to be rendering the foreign vowel /ö/, perhaps just because it > looks a bit like the German letter. But the Bulgarians seem to be > representing it as /jo/ -- could the Bulgarian version be a > re-translation of the Russian? There are a lot of things in here. I'll start by stressing that in the modern Slavic languages the iotated vowel letters primarily indicate that the preceding consonant is palatalized. Only in special positions, e.g. at the start of the word, do the iotated vowel letters also represent an actual glide consonant /j/ preceding the vowel. If you look across the modern variants of the Cyrillic alphabet as used by the Eastern Slavic languages and Bulgarian, as well as historical versions, you will notice that there are iotated versions of a, e, and u, but there is no iotated o. (Bear with me.) I assume that reflects a historical phonotactical restraint such that there were no palatalized consonants before o. I don't know enough about the history of the Slavic languages for details. On the rare occasions that the modern languages have a palatalized consonant before o, Ukrainian and Bulgarian use a soft sign + o spelling, i.e., <ьо>. Russian stands out because it has a sort of iotated o, <ё>. However, that is the result of a late soundshift, where stressed /e/ after but not before a palatalized consonant shifted somewhat inconsistently to /o/. This continued to be written <е> until <ё> was created around 1800, and even today <ё> is not consistently differentiated from <е> in Russian orthographic practice. Belarusian also has <ё>. When it comes to transcribing the German (French) front vowels represented by ö (eu) and ü (u), Russian uses the iotated vowels <ё> and <ю>. This could be related to the fact that the Russian vowels have fronted allophones after (ё) or between (ю) palatalized consonants. Ukrainian picks <е> and <ю> for transcribing the same foreign vowels, i.e., it unrounds the mid vowel. Former German chancellor Gerhard Schröder is rendered like this: ru: Герхард Шрёдер uk: Герхард Шредер bg: Герхард Шрьодер There is another aspect that might have some bearing on this. Although a language like German (or English or French) does not _distinguish_ between palatalized and unpalatalized consonants, there is presumably some degree of allophonic palatalization happening before front vowels. So maybe my pronunciation of München has an initial /mʲ/ to Russian ears, making the transcription Мюнхен quite natural. I don't know. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de