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From: Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: e-bikes are low powered motorcycles, not bicycles
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 20:40:00 +0200
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Am Wed, 24 Apr 2024 13:59:55 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:43:07 -0400 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>> 
>>> On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 21:29:50 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>> 
>>>> Arriving at the lights with an annoyingly ridden E hire bike and a
>>>> motorbike. The Motorbike from experience would easily out accelerate me,
>>>> the E bike while faster than say a roadie is comfortably within my ability
>>>> to out accelerate and also out pace. They where one of many E bikes that I
>>>> passed, I passed no motorcycles they all passed me.
>>>> 
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>> 
>>> There's a bigger difference between a Honda 125cc and a Harley
>>> Davidson than between an ebike and the Honda 125cc
>> 
>> That's an interesting statement.  I happen to still own a 125ccm Honda
>> (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Wave_series>, called ANF 125
>> Innova in Germany) and happen to agree.  But why do I agree? What do you
>> people think?
>> 
>> 
>Can you lift it one handed? 

I can neither lift my cheap and ugly Prophete one handed
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/hollandrad/prophete-hollandrad.jpg>
nor would both of us probably be able to lift a Christiana bike, two
handed.
<https://www.christianiabikes.com/en/>
Both are genuine bicycles. 

Can you lift this twowheeler one handed?

<https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8134631>
(Hover-1 Rival Black Hoverboard with LED Wheel, 6.8kg, up to 7 mph)

Of course you can. Does this make it a bicycle? Of course not. Is it
motor powered? Of course it is. 

Like for e-bikes, the seller gives precise information about battery
capacity, achievable speed and range.  I've yet to find a bicycle where
the producer or seller specifies range, achievable speed and a capacity
as some quantum of energy.

I don't even know what battery capacity would mean for my bicycle. Those
2.2 Wh from the 23 g battery powering the derailleur for between 500 and
1000 km, perhaps? :-}


>Certainly the E bikes I use/have experience I
>can.

There are powered aircraft that weigh less than 120 kg.
<https://sustainableskies.org/two-new-electric-sailplanes/>
<https://e-birdy.com/>

There are people who can lift more than twice as much.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting>

What has this have to do with anything?

A bicycle isn't defined by weight, but by being muscle powered, just
like a glider (sailplane) is defined by being unpowered.

One could debate whether the fact that a glider cannot usually take off
by itself where it has landed makes it truly unpowered, but given that
there is no fixed upper limit to the time or distance one can travel in
pure gliding flight, it is at least “mostly” unpowered. But is certainly
not muscle powered, like a bicycle. The power comes from thermals.
<https://soaringskyways.com/the-science-behind-glider-thermal-soaring/> 
<https://glidinghotspots.eu/?switchlang=EN> 

A bicycle just having a single shot start assist that gets you rolling
might be something similar, but I haven't heard anybody selling such a
thing. I guess nobody would buy it, because the point of an e-bike is to
be continually powered by a motor, with most of the power coming from
the motor, not from the rider.

>
>A small motorbike is heavier than I am though 1/3 of the weight of Harley
>Davidson, but either way your not lifting the bike easily if at all by your
>own, and certainly wouldn’t for example lift one over a gate or so on by
>choice.

It is obvious that because even at the lower end of the motorcycle power
range - e-bikes, that is - most people have plenty of surplus stored
energy for doing what they use these e-bikes for, most of the time:
Riding slow enough on mostly flat terrain for not triggering the speed
limiter, using as little muscle power as possible.  

So _not_ spending money on lightweight construction, or adding all kind
of heavy stuff like suspension, stronger and heavier frames, larger or
additional batteries, even riding a cargo bike instead of a normal bike
because you can, is possible with essentially unlimited "motor assist".
People actually decide to do it that way, because it comes with almost
no additional cost, neither as necessary effort, nor monetary.  It is a
logical consequence of replacing muscle power by motor power. 

>
>Harleys are fairly limited motor bikes, with their weight and size. fine
>for burbling along big open roads, but absolute handful with slower
>narrower roads, even more so than larger super bikes which are also a
>handful but are significantly lighter and smaller bikes.
>
>Ie folks I’ve known with Harleys have been careful where they ride them as
>they don’t want to drop them in the lanes, which being narrow steep, with
>all sorts of cambers and surfaces it’s not a unreasonable worry.


My Honda has smaller wheels and is shorter than my ugly Prophete, both
are parked outside, because it is hard for me to lift and carry the
Prophete into the house.  I wouldn't like to upright the Honda, when
tipped over, but it should be possible to handle 105 kg. Certainly
easier than to handle a toppled Yamaha XS360, weighting 178 kg.  Did
have to manage that in my youth. 

Speaking about a Harley-Davidson Touring or a Honda Goldwing, both
weight roundabout 390 kg, I wouldn't even get them into our front yard,
not even to the door of our front yard.  And even if I could, I most
probably wouldn't be able to get it out of the front yard again, that
needing to turn the vehicle around inside that tiny yard. Not even after
removing all plants and other obstacles from the garden. 

These heavy motorcycles are almost as cumbersome as a car in almost
every respect and can only be moved with the help of their engine power
after you have climbed onto or into the vehicle.

The Honda Cub (50 and 100cc) and the somewhat larger Super Cub (110cc
and 125cc aka ANF125 aka Innova) were known as "almost unkaputtbar",
almost as slim as a bicycle (quoted from
<https://www.motorradonline.de/roller/finale-honda-innova-125-traum-faenger/>)
and "rides like a bicycle" - from the point of view of people riding
"real motorcycles", of course.  From their point of view, the difference
between any e-bike and my Honda is negligible. To them, these are just
different two wheeled vehicles at the very bottom of the pecking order
of motorcycles. Not able to cruise at any speed you like, not heavy
enough to impress somebody by driving up menacingly.




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