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From: =?UTF-8?B?YmFk8J+SvXNlY3Rvcg==?= <forgetski@_INVALID.net>
Subject: Re: app for precision coordinates
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On 6/25/24 19:59, bad💽sector wrote:
> On 6/24/24 13:27, VanguardLH wrote:
>> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/23/24 16:34, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/23/24 10:18, knuttle wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/23/2024 9:39 AM, bad sector wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>>>>>>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a 
>>>>>>> hundred
>>>>>>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a
>>>>>>> LOT of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is 
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> an fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in 
>>>>>>> signupware)?
>>>>>>> Any other ideas?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know about the  android version, but on the PC version you 
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> add pins to identify a specific location.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the PC version of Google Earth Pro, you can determine the 
>>>>>> longitude
>>>>>> and latitude to six decimal places or get good numbers for location
>>>>>> about 300 feet apart.  This 300 feet was calculated by zooming Google
>>>>>> Earth to its maximum and reading the coordinates of each location.
>>>>>
>>>>> About 1/3 of the trees are now just big enough to show on GE but the
>>>>> rest are not visible yet. It is to place THESE that I need the
>>>>> lat-longs. And I'm looking for about one foot of precision :-) 
>>>>> which is
>>>>> not easy with the imagery resolution provided out here in the 
>>>>> sticks. If
>>>>> I were living in the densely populated areas a six inch seedling would
>>>>> show but all I get is about a 1.5-2.0 foot circle to show.
>>>>>
>>>>> During a drinking marathon I once bet with the owner of a hotel I was
>>>>> staying at that I could measure the width of his hotel with a
>>>>> bubble-sextant to within a foot. So I took like a hundred readings on
>>>>> two corners, plotted them and marked the center of each 'blob'. Won 
>>>>> the
>>>>> $200 bet which today would be like $2000. If I were a codepuncher I'd
>>>>> try to write an app that plots for maybe 30 minutes and then coughs up
>>>>> the centerpoint of the same sort of blob as the position.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll be planting another hundred or so in the next three months so I'd
>>>>> like to refine my mapping. 220 of the trees are yellow-cedars not 
>>>>> native
>>>>> here and many fans are watching to see how they will survive. I 
>>>>> want to
>>>>> map them on GE and update the pictures from time to time.
>>>>
>>>> I would think GPS would work to record the locations of the trees.
>>>> While different GPS receivers have varying levels of accuracy, even 
>>>> your
>>>> phone's GPS radio should suffice.  After all, the trees have to be
>>>> planted far enough apart to account for their canopies.
>>>>
>>>> https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/crecifasufledu/extension/plant-pathology-/greening/pdf/GPSAccuracyforTreeScouting.pdf
>>>> https://fruitgrowersnews.com/article/precise-gps-systems-increase-planting-efficiency/
>>>>
>>>> Since you are at site when planting the trees, use GPS to record where
>>>> you planted.  Then use the GPS coordinates, or convert to long-lat, to
>>>> position in a map.
>>>>
>>>> GPS radios in smart phones are accurate to within 3 to 5 meters (1o to
>>>> 16 feet).  Don't know far apart you are planting the seedling to 
>>>> account
>>>> for their canopy sizes later in life.  If a smart phone's GPS isn't
>>>> accurate enough, you can buy GPS receivers that are more accurate.
>>>>
>>>> I figure if a hand-held GPS navigator is good for recording trails that
>>>> it is probably sufficient to record tree locations.
>>>
>>> thanks for the time to respond
>>>
>>> I once bought a garmin gps camera attachment for my slr camera but it
>>> too was wishy washy; never even tried composing blobs with it. With 900
>>> trees (and growing) the only 'involvement' I have time for is putting
>>> the smart-phone down and leaving it there to collect its wanderings over
>>> maybe fifteen minutes or less. The trees are at different distances but
>>> what I want is 1-foot accuracy not so much because it's indispensible
>>> but because I'm a sucker for at least a semblance of reality.
>>> Google-Earth placemarks is one tool I use giving the trees icons
>>> representing the tree species. Ideally I'd like to attach an actual
>>> photo of the tree to appear in a popup on click or something along those
>>> lines and all of it uploaded instead of locally stored.
>>>
>>> Not sure if math averaging would give the same result as hitting the
>>> center of plotted coordinates but with the processing utility in a phone
>>> an APP could ideally produce the ultimately VERY accurate result ...just
>>> like I once did with a bubble sextant meant to produce plots in terms of
>>> miles at the center of triangles of probabilty. That stunt took half an
>>> hour per reading and I did maybe fifty on each of two corners, I forget
>>> the actual number, it was a royal pissing contest :-)
>>
>> I think averaging would only work well if you managed to get the GPS
>> device connected to different GPS satellites within reach.  Then repeat
>> by using another different set of 3 GPS satellites.  I would think
>> reusing the same 3 GPS satellites to get multiple readings from them
>> would result in the same offset (inaccuracy) in each reading.  However,
>> maybe walking around in a circle around the focus point to take multiple
>> readings might work to average the multiple readings from the same set
>> of 3 satellites.
>>
>> Someone here mentioned DGPS (differential GPS) which uses ground-based
>> positioning stations.  Those have a 200-mile range if there are no
>> blocks to the signal (mountains, trees, buildings).  Never got around to
>> using those, so no experience with them.  Don't remember seeing a smart
>> phone stating it can use DGPS, so you'll likely have to find a GPS
>> receiver that can find DGPS stations.
> 
> I launch the F-Droid app *GPSTest* which tunes in a long list of 
> satellites.
> 
> https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.android.gpstest.osmdroid/
> 
> 
> I have no idea how it arrives at the annunciated Lat-Long but it's 
> changing continuously and what I have in mind is an automated way of 
> virtually plotting these positions over a few minutes and picking the 
> plot-centerpoint as THE position. I haven't tried any of the math yet to 
> get a feel for those 7 decimal readouts and what they mean in terms of 
> feet but I figure that there must be some added precision to squeeze out 
> of THEM as opposed to just any ONE of them.
> 

Not to confuse precision with accuracy, the 6th decimal Lat is good for 
10cm precision and the 7th for 1cm (both the the 6th and 7th are 
wondering up to 3 units so that 3 on the 6th counter is a variation of 
30cm or about a good foot). *Accuracy* could come from averaging out the 
time-lapse plot maybe. The good news is that I'm no GPS guru and as far 
as smart-phones go I haven't even come up for air yet.

And out of courtesy to those trying to help out here's a screenshot of 
what I'm trying to do (in this case using GE 'placemarks').

https://imgur.com/7VQlUul.png