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Path: ...!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFZlcmlmaWVkIGZhY3QgdGhhdCDEpC5IIOKfqMSk4p+pIOKfqMSk?= =?UTF-8?B?4p+pIGFuZCBIIOKfqMSk4p+pIOKfqMSk4p+pIGhhdmUgZGlmZmVyZW50IGJlaGF2?= =?UTF-8?Q?ior_ZFC_--attribution--?= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 20:00:36 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 271 Message-ID: <usll3l$38f21$1@dont-email.me> References: <usia2e$2f2pd$1@dont-email.me> <usijm6$1bt2h$1@i2pn2.org> <usikk8$2gnhr$8@dont-email.me> <usiljd$2hc10$3@dont-email.me> <usineq$2hnpb$3@dont-email.me> <usiq9n$2ijsm$1@dont-email.me> <usir82$2inqh$2@dont-email.me> <usit21$2j3c8$1@dont-email.me> <usiufa$2j99n$1@dont-email.me> <usiukh$2jaj3$1@dont-email.me> <usiuup$2jdc7$2@dont-email.me> <usj254$2jutc$2@dont-email.me> <usj2e3$2jut2$1@dont-email.me> <usj2je$2jutc$3@dont-email.me> <usj2rs$2jut2$2@dont-email.me> <usj32s$2k5id$1@dont-email.me> <usjd20$2plge$1@dont-email.me> <usjef5$1cf5q$6@i2pn2.org> <usjfj8$2q613$1@dont-email.me> <usjgs6$1cf5q$7@i2pn2.org> <usjhks$2qhfq$1@dont-email.me> <usjj7v$1cf5q$8@i2pn2.org> <uskg1p$30hr1$1@dont-email.me> <KEkHN.386271$vFZa.185803@fx13.iad> <uskog1$32h3c$1@dont-email.me> <uskpe3$32l00$1@dont-email.me> <uskq04$32h3c$3@dont-email.me> <usks70$1enef$1@i2pn2.org> <usktro$33lov$1@dont-email.me> <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 01:00:37 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="1568d5e95fd7d0d459fb89959682569c"; logging-data="3423297"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/8g2Pu7YhToVwGhdVh78DE" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:QbxwYZaBqST/Tj8is8k1f6gTjik= In-Reply-To: <usl1c7$1enef$9@i2pn2.org> Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 15297 On 3/10/2024 2:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 3/10/24 11:23 AM, olcott wrote: >> On 3/10/2024 12:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>> On 3/10/24 10:17 AM, olcott wrote: >>>> On 3/10/2024 12:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> On 3/10/24 9:52 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 3/10/2024 10:50 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>> On 3/10/24 7:28 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:16 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:49 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 11:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:14 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 10:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 8:30 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:40 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:37, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:32 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:29, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:24 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:30, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 6:24 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:22, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:57 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 00:26, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:10 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 23:22, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 3:50 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 22:34, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What criteria would you use so that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ knows what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong answer to provide? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use the exact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same objective criteria that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulating halt deciders must make sure that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they themselves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do not get stuck in infinite execution. This >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means that they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must abort every simulation that cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly otherwise halt. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This requires Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation and does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort its simulation when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ aborts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does simulate itself in recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not simulate itself in recursive simulation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use the exact same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> objective criteria that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Only because Ĥ.H is embedded within Ĥ and H is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ can possibly get stuck in recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly get stuck in recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You dishonestly ignored that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stipulated to use the exact same OBJECTIVE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criteria that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is true no matter what criteria that is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as long as H is a simulating halt decider. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Objective criteria cannot vary based on who the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject is. They are objective. The answer to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different people is the same answer if the criteria >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are objective. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ.H can get stuck in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation because Ĥ copies its input thus never runs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ cannot possibly get stuck >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive because H does not copy its input thus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> runs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. Dead wrong. Stupidly wrong. So wrong that a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dead monkey could do better. Write the Olcott machine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (not x86utm) code for Ĥ and I would show you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified facts* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified facts* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these verified facts* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn // Ĥ applied to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not a verified fact, that's just something you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to be true. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∞ means infinite loop. Infinite loop doesn't halt. You >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how stupid it is, to say that an infinite loop halts? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ.q0 The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ is copied then transitions to Ĥ.H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) which begins at its own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ to repeat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ BECAUSE IT IS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PRECISELY IDENTICAL TO STEPS B AND C: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) simulates >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > (c) which begins at Ĥ's own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> repeat the process >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Yes and the key step of copying its input is left out so* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ runs out of params and Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ never runs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that isn't how any of this works. Do you even know what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> words mean? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) and (c) are not the same as (1) and (2) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) which begins at simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ.q0 The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ is copied then transitions to Ĥ.H >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) which begins at its own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ to repeat the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> process >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This means that Turing machine H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ can see one more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution >>>>>>>>>>>>>> trace of Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ than its simulated Turing machine Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ can see. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, your just being stuupid, perhaps intentionally. >>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) just moves around to its simulation of a >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) H^.q0 (H^) >>>>>>>>>>>>> H^ then makes a copy of its inp >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) H^.H (H^) (H^) == (1) H (H^) (H^) >>>>>>>>>>>>> The algorithm of H begins a simulation of its input, >>>>>>>>>>>>> watching the behaior of H^ (H^) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) = (2) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Which begins at the simulation of H^.q0 (H^) ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========