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From: olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2024 11:02:28 -0500
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On 3/11/2024 10:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-03-11 14:54:34 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 3/11/2024 5:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-03-11 04:38:40 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 3/10/2024 11:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/10/24 8:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 9:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 7:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 8:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 6:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 2:23 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 11:23 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 10:17 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 9:52 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 10:50 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/24 7:28 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 12:16 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:49 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 11:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 9:14 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 10:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/24 8:30 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:40 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:37, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:32 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 02:29, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 7:24 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:30, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 6:24 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 01:22, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:57 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/03/24 00:26, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 5:10 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 23:22, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/9/2024 3:50 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/24 22:34, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What criteria would you use so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ knows what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong answer to provide?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the exact same objective criteria 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulating halt deciders must make 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure that they themselves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do not get stuck in infinite 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution. This means that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must abort every simulation that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly otherwise halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This requires Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation and does not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to abort its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation when Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ aborts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does simulate itself in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not simulate itself in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exact same objective criteria that H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Only because Ĥ.H is embedded within Ĥ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and H is not*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ can possibly get stuck in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ cannot possibly get stuck in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You dishonestly ignored that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ is stipulated to use the exact same 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OBJECTIVE criteria that H ⟨Ĥ⟩ uses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above is true no matter what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criteria that is used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as long as H is a simulating halt decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Objective criteria cannot vary based on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the subject is. They are objective. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The answer to different people is the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same answer if the criteria are objective.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ.H can get 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in recursive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation because Ĥ copies its input thus 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never runs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is objectively true that Ĥ cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly get stuck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive because H does not copy its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input thus runs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of params.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. Dead wrong. Stupidly wrong. So wrong 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that a dead monkey could do better. Write 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Olcott machine (not x86utm) code for Ĥ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I would show you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In other words you are denying these 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not a verified fact, that's just 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something you want to be true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∞ means infinite loop. Infinite loop doesn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt. You see how stupid it is, to say that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an infinite loop halts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ.q0 The input ⟨Ĥ⟩ is copied then 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transitions to Ĥ.H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) which begins at its own simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to repeat the process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BECAUSE IT IS PRECISELY IDENTICAL TO STEPS B 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AND C:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > (b) Ĥ.H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ (input and copy) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > (c) which begins at Ĥ's own simulated 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩ to repeat the process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Yes and the key step of copying its input is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> left out so*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ runs out of params and Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never runs out of params*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that isn't how any of this works. Do you even 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know what words mean?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) and (c) are not the same as (1) and (2)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution trace of H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) H applied ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) which begins at simulated ⟨Ĥ.q0⟩
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