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From: olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Incorrect questions and halt deciders --Liars?--
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 23:43:33 -0500
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On 3/14/2024 11:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/14/24 9:19 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/14/2024 11:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/14/24 8:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/14/2024 8:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/14/24 3:57 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 5:03 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 2:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 4:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 12:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 11:41 AM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 14/03/24 06:03, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 11:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 9:29 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 11:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 8:46 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 10:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 6:35 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 7:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 4:20 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For any program H that might determine whether programs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt, a "pathological" program D, called with some 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can pass its own source and its input to H and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically do the opposite of what H predicts D 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No H can exist that handles this case.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but the correct answer for the question given to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H exists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Specific TM: H(D,D) to Halts(D,D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Specific unmarried_man to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stopped_beating_wife(YES/NO)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you ask a man that has never been married:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you stopped beating your wife?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang/c/AO5Vlupeelo/m/nxJy7N2vULwJ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is a different issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some men to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from never married men to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for all unmarried men.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Invalid, because it asks about a non-existant person.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a non-existent halt decider H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, because it presumes facts that are not true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Specific TM: H(D,D) to Halts(D,D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which s a lying comment since nothing in the question 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> asks for one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from the specific TM/input pair 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) to Halts(D,D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which isn't the mapping the question asks about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The same question exists in a hierarchy of generality to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specificity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a mapping from    D(D) to Halts(D,D).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a mapping from H1(D,D) to Halts(D,D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from H(D,D) to Halts(D,D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU ARE JUST BEING STUPID.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Question, Does the Computation Described by your inpt 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (in this case D(D) ) halt when run does NOT ask about a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mappig from anything OTHER than D(D) to Halts (D,D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is simply a degree of detail that you choose to ignore.
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a mapping from H1(D,D) to Halts(D,D)==1
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from H(D,D) to Halts(D,D)???
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> H1(D,D) or H(D,D) are NOT "more specific" thatn D(D) when 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> asking about D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And you are just a stupid pathological liar for saying so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where on earth do you get that H1 or H are in ANY WAY a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "stand-in" for the behavior of the input they are trying to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> decide on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are the thing being TESTED.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are just showing your TOTAL and UTTER STUPIDITY here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be mre like what decider gets the Halting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Question right the pathological input?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not, Does the input Halt when run?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look at the wrong question and of course you get the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And repeatedly doing that is just another form of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DECEPTION and LYING.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The QUESTION ask for the mapping of D D -> {Halting, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting}
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else is just a LIE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isomorphic to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mapping from specific_unmarried_man to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stopped_beating_wife(YES/NO)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The question ask for the mapping from D,D to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halts(D,D), which exists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remeber, the question is, and only is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not the question that H(D,D) is being asked.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, you continue to lie about that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess you are just incurably stupid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you still remember the question of the Halting Problem?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THE REAL ONE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The same as the specific_unmarried_man
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The logical law of polar questions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feb 20, 2015, 11:38:48 AM  sci.lang
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When posed to a man whom has never been married,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the question: Have you stopped beating your wife?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is an incorrect polar question because neither yes nor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no is a correct answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the Machine and Input described by the input Halt 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when run.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, H only gets ivolved when we are CHECKING the answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Specific unmarried_man to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stopped_beating_wife(YES/NO)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) and (b) are isomorphic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Only in that H doesn't exist, as oesn't the man's wife.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are both YES/NO questions lacking a correct YES/NO 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some TM/input pairs 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from H/D to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for H/D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the question isn't mapping H/D, it is mapping the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Machine described by the input (and its input) to if 
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========