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Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!news2.arglkargh.de!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> Newsgroups: sci.logic Subject: Re: ZFC solution to incorrect questions: reject them Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 12:44:11 +0200 Organization: - Lines: 145 Message-ID: <ut18pr$27u86$2@dont-email.me> References: <usq5uq$e4sh$1@dont-email.me> <usqn3v$i33s$1@dont-email.me> <usqo6h$hubd$3@dont-email.me> <usqp0u$ie7v$1@dont-email.me> <usqq3p$iit2$1@dont-email.me> <usqqto$ipr7$1@dont-email.me> <usqrcq$iit2$3@dont-email.me> <usqu5h$jamh$1@dont-email.me> <usr0in$jp1l$2@dont-email.me> <usr2bv$k5kt$1@dont-email.me> <usr3ph$kdfp$2@dont-email.me> <usr7oo$1mk0f$5@i2pn2.org> <usr83l$on40$5@dont-email.me> <ussl5b$11m35$3@dont-email.me> <ussmik$11q5n$6@dont-email.me> <ussp50$1oq7p$7@i2pn2.org> <ust3ls$14v0p$1@dont-email.me> <ust6dn$1oq9q$9@i2pn2.org> <ust7b4$15m14$3@dont-email.me> <usta7k$1oq7p$17@i2pn2.org> <ustbdp$16peb$1@dont-email.me> <usvcdu$1scss$1@i2pn2.org> <usvjd9$1prhb$4@dont-email.me> <usvm70$1sokc$1@i2pn2.org> <usvmii$1qp6a$5@dont-email.me> <usvo5q$1sokc$2@i2pn2.org> <usvoep$1rdem$2@dont-email.me> <usvrop$1sokc$5@i2pn2.org> <usvs99$1ru1i$5@dont-email.me> <usvu7u$1sokd$10@i2pn2.org> <ut027d$1tcdv$1@dont-email.me> <ut06ub$1tev8$3@i2pn2.org> <ut079j$1u3jv$7@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="bf35ab5e3a8ea027439c5edfb6b78d66"; logging-data="2357510"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/1fypI+7ESXGxqwj7QOTKL" User-Agent: Unison/2.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:lmwyPFHXDFIwgPnuMZpHcWHIlco= Bytes: 8311 On 2024-03-15 01:12:19 +0000, olcott said: > On 3/14/2024 8:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >> On 3/14/24 4:45 PM, olcott wrote: >>> On 3/14/2024 5:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>> On 3/14/24 3:04 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>> On 3/14/2024 4:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>> On 3/14/24 1:59 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 3:54 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 1:26 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 3:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 12:32 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 12:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 4:04 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 5:43 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 2:54 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 4:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 1:52 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 12:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 10:08 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 11:44 AM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13/03/24 04:55, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2024 10:49 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not quite. It always gets the wrong answer, but only one of them for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each quesiton. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They all gets the wrong answer on a whole class of questions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. You said. yourself. that H1 gets the right answer for D. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since it is a logical impossibility to determine the truth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of a self-contradictory expression the requirement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for H to do this is bogus. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shows you are just a LIAR, as there IS a truth value to the expression >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is the requirment for ANY SPECIFIC H. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly cost your soul* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly cost your soul* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly cost your soul* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from H(D,D) to Halts(D,D) that exists. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This proves that H(D,D) is being asked an incorrect question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why, because it is NOT a LIE. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't even know the definiton of an incorrect question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I invented it so I get to stipulate its meaning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang/c/AO5Vlupeelo/m/nxJy7N2vULwJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, common technical term. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cite a source. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that there DOES exist a mapping Halt(M,d) that maps all Turing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Machines and there input to a result of Halting / Non-Halting for EVERY >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> member of that input set, means tha Halts is a valid mapping to ask a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decider to try to decider. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That part is true. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise when you ask a man that has never been married: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you stopped beating tour wife? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are some men that have stopped beating their wife. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, because that question include a presumption of something not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually present. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some men to YES/NO >>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from never unmarried men to YES/NO >>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for all unmarried men. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some TM/input pairs to YES/NO >>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from H/D to YES/NO >>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for H/D >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Except that the mapping requested is about the INPUTS to H, not H itsef. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In order to see that it is an incorrect question we must examine >>>>>>>>>>> the question in detail. Making sure to always ignore this key detail >>>>>>>>>>> <is> cheating. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts >>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt >>>>>>>>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩)) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Which isn;t the question at all, so you are just shown to be a stupid liar. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The QUESTION is: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Does the machine and input described by this input, Halt when run? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The question posed to Ĥ.H has no correct answer, thus not the >>>>>>>>> same question at all. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But it DOES. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then tell me which element of: >>>>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩)) is correct and make sure that >>>>>>> you explain why this element is correct and don't try to switch >>>>>>> to any other element outside of the above specified set. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I didn't say there was. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Then you understand that each question posed to each Ĥ.H in the >>>>> above set has no correct answer only because each of these answers >>>>> are contradicted by the machine that H is contained within. >>>>> >>>> >>>> No, YOU don't understand that the IS a correct answer, just not the one >>>> that H (or H^.H ) happens to give. >>>> >>> >>> Then show me which contradicted answer is correct. >>> >> >> >> If H (H^) (H^) goes to qy, then H^ (H^) goes to qy and loops so qn was >> the right answer. > *The strawman deception is all that you have* > > Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts > Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt > ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩)) > > *The answer must come from elements of the above set* Is a false claim about a strawman deception really the best you can say? -- Mikko