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From: immibis <news@immibis.com>
Newsgroups: sci.logic,comp.theory
Subject: Re: ZFC solution to incorrect questions: reject them
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 04:15:26 +0100
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On 16/03/24 00:17, olcott wrote:
> On 3/15/2024 6:02 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/15/24 3:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/15/2024 5:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 3/15/24 1:42 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/15/2024 3:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/15/24 12:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 2:42 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 12:23 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 2:14 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 12:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 1:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 7:41 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-15 01:12:19 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 8:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 4:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 5:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 3:04 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 4:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 1:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 3:54 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 1:26 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 3:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 12:32 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 12:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 4:04 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 5:43 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 2:54 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 4:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 1:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 12:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 10:08 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 11:44 AM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13/03/24 04:55, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2024 10:49 PM, Richard Damon 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not quite. It always gets the wrong 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer, but only one of them for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each quesiton.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They all gets the wrong answer on a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whole class of questions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. You said. yourself. that H1 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gets the right answer for D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since it is a logical impossibility to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine the truth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of a self-contradictory 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expression the requirement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for H to do this is bogus.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shows you are just a LIAR, as there IS a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truth value to the expression that is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the requirment for ANY SPECIFIC H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost your soul*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost your soul*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost your soul*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from H(D,D) to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halts(D,D) that exists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This proves that H(D,D) is being asked an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why, because it is NOT a LIE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't even know the definiton of an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I invented it so I get to stipulate its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang/c/AO5Vlupeelo/m/nxJy7N2vULwJ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, common technical term.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cite a source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that there DOES exist a mapping 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halt(M,d) that maps all Turing Machines 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and there input to a result of Halting / 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting for EVERY member of that input 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set, means tha Halts is a valid mapping to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask a decider to try to decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That part is true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise when you ask a man that has never 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been married:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you stopped beating tour wife?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are some men that have stopped 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beating their wife.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, because that question include a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> presumption of something not actually present.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some men to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from never unmarried men 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unmarried men.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TM/input pairs to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from H/D to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for H/D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except that the mapping requested is about the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> INPUTS to H, not H itsef.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to see that it is an incorrect 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question we must examine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the question in detail. Making sure to always 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore this key detail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <is> cheating.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩))
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which isn;t the question at all, so you are just 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shown to be a stupid liar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The QUESTION is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the machine and input described by this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input, Halt when run?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The question posed to Ĥ.H has no correct answer, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus not the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same question at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But it DOES.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then tell me which element of:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩)) is correct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and make sure that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you explain why this element is correct and don't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to switch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any other element outside of the above specified 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't say there was.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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