Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.logic,comp.theory
Subject: Re: ZFC solution to incorrect questions: reject them
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 22:52:04 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 349
Message-ID: <ut3514$2n0uu$7@dont-email.me>
References: <usq5uq$e4sh$1@dont-email.me> <ust3ls$14v0p$1@dont-email.me>
 <ust6dn$1oq9q$9@i2pn2.org> <ust7b4$15m14$3@dont-email.me>
 <usta7k$1oq7p$17@i2pn2.org> <ustbdp$16peb$1@dont-email.me>
 <usvcdu$1scss$1@i2pn2.org> <usvjd9$1prhb$4@dont-email.me>
 <usvm70$1sokc$1@i2pn2.org> <usvmii$1qp6a$5@dont-email.me>
 <usvo5q$1sokc$2@i2pn2.org> <usvoep$1rdem$2@dont-email.me>
 <usvrop$1sokc$5@i2pn2.org> <usvs99$1ru1i$5@dont-email.me>
 <usvu7u$1sokd$10@i2pn2.org> <ut027d$1tcdv$1@dont-email.me>
 <ut06ub$1tev8$3@i2pn2.org> <ut079j$1u3jv$7@dont-email.me>
 <ut18pr$27u86$2@dont-email.me> <ut1mn9$2afad$7@dont-email.me>
 <ut24je$1vtvi$6@i2pn2.org> <ut25ro$2e06s$1@dont-email.me>
 <ut26nf$1vtvj$10@i2pn2.org> <ut276t$2e06s$6@dont-email.me>
 <ut28ab$1vtvj$18@i2pn2.org> <ut28qp$2e06s$12@dont-email.me>
 <ut2bf3$1vtvi$15@i2pn2.org> <ut2bs2$2f6aj$2@dont-email.me>
 <ut2h69$1vtvi$18@i2pn2.org> <ut2j5t$2gkoj$2@dont-email.me>
 <ut2k2h$1vtvj$26@i2pn2.org> <ut2kv3$2grvf$2@dont-email.me>
 <ut32se$2n598$3@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 03:52:04 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="3fab022aa6617bd72f29c84b8d0d5aa2";
	logging-data="2851806"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19b3l7KlMNR5eV4qVGbTnUF"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:/gPyJWdiQgTpqLfIX87gfQ2yMZQ=
In-Reply-To: <ut32se$2n598$3@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 18198

On 3/15/2024 10:15 PM, immibis wrote:
> On 16/03/24 00:17, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/15/2024 6:02 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/15/24 3:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/15/2024 5:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/15/24 1:42 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 3:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 12:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 2:42 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 12:23 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 2:14 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 12:00 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 1:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 7:41 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-15 01:12:19 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 8:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 4:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 5:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 3:04 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 4:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 1:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 3:54 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 1:26 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 3:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 12:32 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 12:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 4:04 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 5:43 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 2:54 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 4:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 1:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 12:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 10:08 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 11:44 AM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13/03/24 04:55, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2024 10:49 PM, Richard Damon 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not quite. It always gets the wrong 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer, but only one of them for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each quesiton.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They all gets the wrong answer on a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whole class of questions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. You said. yourself. that H1 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gets the right answer for D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since it is a logical impossibility to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine the truth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of a self-contradictory 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expression the requirement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for H to do this is bogus.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shows you are just a LIAR, as there IS 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a truth value to the expression that is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the requirment for ANY SPECIFIC H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly cost your soul*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly cost your soul*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly cost your soul*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from H(D,D) to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halts(D,D) that exists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This proves that H(D,D) is being asked 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an incorrect question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why, because it is NOT a LIE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't even know the definiton of an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I invented it so I get to stipulate its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang/c/AO5Vlupeelo/m/nxJy7N2vULwJ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, common technical term.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cite a source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that there DOES exist a mapping 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halt(M,d) that maps all Turing Machines 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and there input to a result of Halting / 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting for EVERY member of that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input set, means tha Halts is a valid 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mapping to ask a decider to try to decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That part is true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise when you ask a man that has never 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been married:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you stopped beating tour wife?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are some men that have stopped 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beating their wife.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, because that question include a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> presumption of something not actually present.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some men to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from never unmarried men 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unmarried men.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TM/input pairs to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from H/D to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for H/D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except that the mapping requested is about 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the INPUTS to H, not H itsef.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to see that it is an incorrect 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question we must examine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the question in detail. Making sure to always 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore this key detail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <is> cheating.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩))
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which isn;t the question at all, so you are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just shown to be a stupid liar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The QUESTION is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the machine and input described by this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input, Halt when run?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The question posed to Ĥ.H has no correct answer, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus not the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same question at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But it DOES.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then tell me which element of:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩)) is correct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and make sure that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you explain why this element is correct and don't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to switch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any other element outside of the above 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specified set.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't say there was.
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========