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From: Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Shielding spacecraft against cosmic radiation
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 16:10:18 +1100
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On 16/03/2024 6:15 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 3/15/24 16:11, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 13:11:29 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/15/24 10:35, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 07:28:39 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Mar 2024 10:38:47 -0700) it happened john 
>>>>> larkin
>>>>> <jl@650pot.com> wrote in <s3d6vi95gfrbs6omoula55soaktalpggru@4ax.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 16:46:07 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Mar 2024 08:13:31 -0700) it happened John 
>>>>>>> Larkin
>>>>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in 
>>>>>>> <in46vipa7a3eb6q7au6alobve5vfmv5jso@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 06:13:43 GMT, Jan Panteltje 
>>>>>>>> <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Wed, 13 Mar 2024 03:54:24 -0700) it happened 
>>>>>>>>> John Larkin
>>>>>>>>> <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in 
>>>>>>>>> <ae13viptr1sskaqq1h2ru1j9i85sdecfrd@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 07:09:47 GMT, Jan Panteltje 
>>>>>>>>>> <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Mar 2024 14:18:18 -0700) it happened 
>>>>>>>>>>> john larkin
>>>>>>>>>>> <jl@650pot.com> wrote in 
>>>>>>>>>>> <34h1vihp32geb2olkcscfksbr8k0bdgdmu@4ax.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Mar 2024 06:22:55 GMT, Jan Panteltje 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shields up: New ideas might make active shielding viable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Active shielding was first proposed in the '60s. We’re 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> finally close to making it work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/03/shields-up-new-ideas-might-make-active-shielding-viable/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit of static oelectricity, 1 MV ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's all absurd, cramming a crew into a tiny dark 
>>>>>>>>>>>> cylinder, deep
>>>>>>>>>>>> inside tons of magnets, to reduce their radiation exposure a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> little.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes that may be more dangerus, tha tI why I like the 
>>>>>>>>>>> elctrostatic solution.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Space is not people-friendly. Earth is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Traveling to or living on Mars woud be lethal. Living on the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> moon
>>>>>>>>>>>> would be bad too.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we could convert some comet, live inside it,
>>>>>>>>>>> use its material for power water and  shelter
>>>>>>>>>>> and put an engine on it and start interstellar travel:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BBOumuamua
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You go first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh I would not mind flying the comet thing, would want to have 
>>>>>>>>> a say in the design and food chosen though.
>>>>>>>>> but it will take generations to reach any target destination.
>>>>>>>>> So you have to bring whole families ,
>>>>>>>>> or as things go now, just some skin and have a computah hatch you
>>>>>>>>> and teach you when growing up near the destination.
>>>>>>>>> Makes you wonder if the first life on earth was brought here in 
>>>>>>>>> a similar way
>>>>>>>>> (circular reasoning).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Earth is too good to be an accident, and our life form is too 
>>>>>>>> complex
>>>>>>>> to have evolved from inorganics. Other civiizations in the universe
>>>>>>>> have probably advanced for billions of years. So it's likely that
>>>>>>>> Earth and DNA-based life were designed, maybe as a high school 
>>>>>>>> science
>>>>>>>> project. I give it a B-.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well I won't attack your religious beliefs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I expressed no religious beliefs, and it's good that you wouldn't
>>>>>> attack any.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RNA World is a religious belief. Concensus and faith without 
>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just watched some news story where a sort of computer robot was 
>>>>>>> teaching kids...
>>>>>>> Again, an other science program today on TV about planets: all 
>>>>>>> sort of basic chemistry was found
>>>>>>> on some moons and asteroids.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure. Chemicals are not life, as a junk box full of parts is not a
>>>>>> working electronic instrument.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They did a testing in the lab and made RNA from just basic 
>>>>>>> chemicals added some heat cycling and dry soak cycle
>>>>>>> like you will find on planets (sun, tides):
>>>>>>> https://phys.org/news/2022-03-insight-life.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> we are just a chemical reaction really.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are an astoundingly complex structure that uses chemicals and
>>>>>> quantum mechanics. At least I am.
>>>>>
>>>> >from elementary particles to atoms to molecules to self-replicating 
>>>> RNA (check)
>>>> >from RNA to DNA and ever more complex forms like us (check)
>>>>> Readup on Darwin
>>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> Read up on the ways our cells operate and reproduce. It's astounding.
>>>>
>>>> Darwin was very smart, but he had no idea how cells work. I think that
>>>> if he had, he'd have been skeptical of random evolution and selection
>>>> as our origin.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And we are skeptical of your intelligent design stance. For that
>>> matter, there are quite a few blunders in living beings that an
>>> intelligent designer wouldn't have made.
>>
>> What you call my "stance" is one conjecture. I have others that you'd
>> approve of even less.
>>
>> Our cells are extraordinary, so their creation might have been an
>> extraordinary process. Refuse to think about possibilities if that's
>> your style.
>>
>> There are youtube videos about cell replication that are mind
>> boggling. It doesn't work until a zillion fiendshly complex things all
>> work, and the cell defines them for itself.
>>
>> Thinking about possibilities helps electronic design too.
> 
> There are lots of chemists and biologists who think that self-
> replicating RNA is a credible step on the path towards evolving
> life. There is no need for the seeds of life to have come from
> elsewhere than earth, although that possibility is not excluded.
> 
> It's remarkable that the reproduction of RNA and DNA still today
> can be made to work simply by cycling the temperature of the right
> mixture of chemicals, much like day and night cycles, as may well
> have happened on a young earth.
> 
> To our current knowledge, actual intelligent designers are even
> less probable than random mutations producing a working cell. How
> did the intelligent designers come to be? They would have been
> subject to the same kind of constraints as life on earth, the
> right conditions and enough time.
> 
> In fact, as long as we haven't found evidence of life elsewhere
> in the universe, we can't have any real idea of how common or rare
> it is. However, we *can* be pretty confident that *intelligent*
> life is at least a few million times less likely than just any
> life. On those grounds, I have less trouble believing in evolution
> than in intelligent design.
> 
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