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Path: ...!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> Newsgroups: sci.logic Subject: Re: ZFC solution to incorrect questions: reject them --discourse context -- Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2024 17:29:34 +0200 Organization: - Lines: 368 Message-ID: <ut728u$3jbb8$1@dont-email.me> References: <usq5uq$e4sh$1@dont-email.me> <usvm70$1sokc$1@i2pn2.org> <usvmii$1qp6a$5@dont-email.me> <usvo5q$1sokc$2@i2pn2.org> <usvoep$1rdem$2@dont-email.me> <usvrop$1sokc$5@i2pn2.org> <usvs99$1ru1i$5@dont-email.me> <usvu7u$1sokd$10@i2pn2.org> <ut027d$1tcdv$1@dont-email.me> <ut06ub$1tev8$3@i2pn2.org> <ut079j$1u3jv$7@dont-email.me> <ut18pr$27u86$2@dont-email.me> <ut1mn9$2afad$7@dont-email.me> <ut24je$1vtvi$6@i2pn2.org> <ut25ro$2e06s$1@dont-email.me> <ut26nf$1vtvj$10@i2pn2.org> <ut276t$2e06s$6@dont-email.me> <ut28ab$1vtvj$18@i2pn2.org> <ut28qp$2e06s$12@dont-email.me> <ut2bf3$1vtvi$15@i2pn2.org> <ut2bs2$2f6aj$2@dont-email.me> <ut2h69$1vtvi$18@i2pn2.org> <ut2j5t$2gkoj$2@dont-email.me> <ut2k2h$1vtvj$26@i2pn2.org> <ut2kv3$2grvf$2@dont-email.me> <ut32se$2n598$3@dont-email.me> <ut3514$2n0uu$7@dont-email.me> <ut36tn$2notf$1@dont-email.me> <ut3a9n$2nm61$5@dont-email.me> <ut4eb8$23135$1@i2pn2.org> <ut4em7$2v4ce$3@dont-email.me> <ut4om5$23hsb$1@i2pn2.org> <ut4ps6$31jue$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="75d47b204e10c70bad56d68b77f2e69b"; logging-data="3779944"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/1UOJlOynLPlfq0MsBjvK+" User-Agent: Unison/2.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:SSu9QDS+PrxGnOtj9VVt7dixk7Q= Bytes: 21512 On 2024-03-16 18:53:57 +0000, olcott said: > On 3/16/2024 1:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >> On 3/16/24 8:43 AM, olcott wrote: >>> On 3/16/2024 10:37 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>> On 3/15/24 10:21 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>> On 3/15/2024 11:24 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>> On 16/03/24 04:52, olcott wrote: >>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 10:15 PM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>> On 16/03/24 00:17, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 6:02 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 3:47 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 5:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 1:42 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 3:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 12:50 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 2:42 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 12:23 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 2:14 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 12:00 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 1:38 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/24 7:41 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-15 01:12:19 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 8:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 4:45 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 5:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 3:04 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 4:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 1:59 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 3:54 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 1:26 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 3:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 12:32 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 12:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 4:04 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 5:43 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 2:54 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 4:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 1:52 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 12:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 10:08 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 11:44 AM, immibis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13/03/24 04:55, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2024 10:49 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not quite. It always gets the wrong answer, but only one of them for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each quesiton. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They all gets the wrong answer on a whole class of questions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. You said. yourself. that H1 gets the right answer for D. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since it is a logical impossibility to determine the truth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of a self-contradictory expression the requirement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for H to do this is bogus. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shows you are just a LIAR, as there IS a truth value to the expression >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is the requirment for ANY SPECIFIC H. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly cost your soul* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly cost your soul* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly cost your soul* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from H(D,D) to Halts(D,D) that exists. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This proves that H(D,D) is being asked an incorrect question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why, because it is NOT a LIE. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't even know the definiton of an incorrect question. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I invented it so I get to stipulate its meaning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang/c/AO5Vlupeelo/m/nxJy7N2vULwJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, common technical term. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cite a source. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that there DOES exist a mapping Halt(M,d) that maps all Turing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Machines and there input to a result of Halting / Non-Halting for EVERY >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> member of that input set, means tha Halts is a valid mapping to ask a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decider to try to decider. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That part is true. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise when you ask a man that has never been married: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you stopped beating tour wife? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are some men that have stopped beating their wife. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, because that question include a presumption of something not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually present. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some men to YES/NO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from never unmarried men to YES/NO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for all unmarried men. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some TM/input pairs to YES/NO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from H/D to YES/NO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for H/D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except that the mapping requested is about the INPUTS to H, not H itsef. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to see that it is an incorrect question we must examine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the question in detail. Making sure to always ignore this key detail >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <is> cheating. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩)) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which isn;t the question at all, so you are just shown to be a stupid liar. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The QUESTION is: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the machine and input described by this input, Halt when run? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The question posed to Ĥ.H has no correct answer, thus not the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same question at all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But it DOES. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then tell me which element of: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩)) is correct and make sure that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you explain why this element is correct and don't try to switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any other element outside of the above specified set. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't say there was. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you understand that each question posed to each Ĥ.H in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> above set has no correct answer only because each of these answers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are contradicted by the machine that H is contained within. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, YOU don't understand that the IS a correct answer, just not the one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H (or H^.H ) happens to give. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then show me which contradicted answer is correct. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H (H^) (H^) goes to qy, then H^ (H^) goes to qy and loops so qn was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the right answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *The strawman deception is all that you have* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩)) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *The answer must come from elements of the above set* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is a false claim about a strawman deception really the best you can say? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above are the program/input pairs such that every Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gets the wrong answer only because whatever answer that Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gets is contradicted. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That doesn't mean they are the set that the answer to the ACTUAL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> QUESTION needs to come from. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are just proving your stupidity and duplicity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Objective and Subjective Specifications >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hehner/OSS.pdf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========