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From: olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.logic
Subject: Re: ZFC solution to incorrect questions: reject them
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:05:03 -0500
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On 3/17/2024 10:16 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-03-15 14:41:44 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 3/15/2024 5:44 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-03-15 01:12:19 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 3/14/2024 8:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/14/24 4:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 5:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 3:04 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 4:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 1:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 3:54 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 1:26 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 3:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/24 12:32 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2024 12:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 4:04 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 5:43 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 2:54 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 4:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 1:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 12:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/24 10:08 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2024 11:44 AM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13/03/24 04:55, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2024 10:49 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not quite. It always gets the wrong answer, but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only one of them for each quesiton.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They all gets the wrong answer on a whole class 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of questions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. You said. yourself. that H1 gets the right 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer for D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since it is a logical impossibility to determine 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of a self-contradictory expression the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for H to do this is bogus.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shows you are just a LIAR, as there IS a truth 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value to the expression that is the requirment for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANY SPECIFIC H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly cost your 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soul*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly cost your 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soul*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lying about me being a liar may possibly cost your 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soul*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no mapping from H(D,D) to Halts(D,D) that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This proves that H(D,D) is being asked an incorrect 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why, because it is NOT a LIE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't even know the definiton of an incorrect 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I invented it so I get to stipulate its meaning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang/c/AO5Vlupeelo/m/nxJy7N2vULwJ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, common technical term.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cite a source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that there DOES exist a mapping Halt(M,d) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that maps all Turing Machines and there input to a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> result of Halting / Non-Halting for EVERY member of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that input set, means tha Halts is a valid mapping to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask a decider to try to decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That part is true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise when you ask a man that has never been married:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you stopped beating tour wife?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are some men that have stopped beating their wife.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, because that question include a presumption of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something not actually present.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some men to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from never unmarried men to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for all unmarried men.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although there is a mapping from some TM/input pairs to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no mapping from H/D to YES/NO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus the question is incorrect for H/D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except that the mapping requested is about the INPUTS to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H, not H itsef.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to see that it is an incorrect question we must 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> examine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the question in detail. Making sure to always ignore this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> key detail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <is> cheating.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not halt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩))
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which isn;t the question at all, so you are just shown to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a stupid liar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The QUESTION is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the machine and input described by this input, Halt 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when run?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The question posed to Ĥ.H has no correct answer, thus not the
>>>>>>>>>>>> same question at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But it DOES.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then tell me which element of:
>>>>>>>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩)) is correct and make sure 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> you explain why this element is correct and don't try to switch
>>>>>>>>>> to any other element outside of the above specified set.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I didn't say there was.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then you understand that each question posed to each Ĥ.H in the
>>>>>>>> above set has no correct answer only because each of these answers
>>>>>>>> are contradicted by the machine that H is contained within.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, YOU don't understand that the IS a correct answer, just not 
>>>>>>> the one that H (or H^.H ) happens to give.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then show me which contradicted answer is correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If H (H^) (H^) goes to qy, then H^ (H^) goes to qy and loops so qn 
>>>>> was the right answer.
>>>> *The strawman deception is all that you have*
>>>>
>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqy ∞ // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ halts
>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hq0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.Hqn   // Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt
>>>> ∀Ĥ.H (Ĥ.H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ != Halts(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩))
>>>>
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