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From: olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Can any pathological input thwart a simulating abort decider?
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2024 14:48:07 -0500
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On 3/23/2024 2:42 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> Op 23.mrt.2024 om 20:26 schreef olcott:
>> On 3/23/2024 1:57 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 23.mrt.2024 om 17:53 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 3/23/2024 11:31 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 23.mrt.2024 om 17:08 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 3/23/2024 9:43 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 23.mrt.2024 om 14:58 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2024 4:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 22.mrt.2024 om 19:41 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>> 09 void main()
>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> H is a simulating abort decider that supposed to
>>>>>>>>>> correctly determine whether or not it needs to abort
>>>>>>>>>> the simulation of any pathological inputs that are
>>>>>>>>>> attempting to thwart this abort decision.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> H must abort every simulated input that would not
>>>>>>>>>> otherwise halt to prevent its own non-termination.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is a self-evident verified fact that every H(D,D)
>>>>>>>>>> that decides to abort its simulated D(D) is correct
>>>>>>>>>> in doing so because this does prevent its own
>>>>>>>>>> non-termination.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is self-evident that when H is programmed to abort and 
>>>>>>>>> return false, then [the simulated] D will 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> immediately stop running never having reached its last 
>>>>>>>> instruction to halt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As can be seen above, if H returns false in line 03, then D will 
>>>>>>> go to line 04 and line 06 and halt (unless aborted).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You still do not understand that functions called in infinite
>>>>>> recursion never return to their caller, thus must have grossly
>>>>>> exaggerated your programming skill.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even a beginner in C will see that if the simulated D, using the H 
>>>>> that is programmed to abort and return false, will continue with 
>>>>> line 04 then line 06 and halt (unless aborted).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>> 02 {
>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>> 07 }
>>>> 08
>>>> 09 void main()
>>>> 10 {
>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>> 12 }
>>>>
>>>> That is the strawman deception we are only talking about the
>>>> fact that the D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach
>>>> its own line 06 and halt.
>>>
>>> Denying a verified fact is not a strong rebuttal.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> When the simulated D calls its simulator this call cannot possibly
>>>>>> return to its caller. The relationship between the simulated D(D)
>>>>>> and its simulator makes a call D(D) to its own simulator isomorphic
>>>>>> to infinite recursion.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is exactly the relation with the simulator that aborts, which 
>>>>> makes that also the simulated H is programmed to abort and return 
>>>>> false.
>>>>> Olcott is again contradicting himself.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That the directly executed D(D) is an entirely different instance
>>>>>> that does not have this same pathological relationship is summed
>>>>>> up in your own reply.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not talking about a directly executed D, but a simulated D!
>>>>> I am not talking about a directly executed D, but a simulated D!
>>>>> I am not talking about a directly executed D, but a simulated D!
>>>>>
>>>>> This simulated D halts (unless aborted)!
>>>>
>>>> D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line
>>>> 06 and halt. That you say otherwise proves your insufficient
>>>> programming skill.
>>>>
>>>>> It seems too difficult for olcott to see, what even a beginner 
>>>>> sees, that H, programmed to return false, also returns false when 
>>>>> simulated (unless aborted).
>>>>
>>>> When I worked at the US Army Corps of engineers an independent
>>>> contractor rated my programs as the best quality of all of the
>>>> programs that they reviewed and they reviewed all of the programs.
>>>
>>> If true, I am very sorry for olcott, that he is no longer able to 
>>> see, what even a beginner sees, that H, programmed to return false, 
>>> also returns false when simulated (unless aborted).
>>
>> Everyone with sufficient programming skill can see that this is a
>> verified fact:
>>
>> *D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own final state*
>> *at line 06 in an infinite number of steps of correct simulation*
>> Some of these people might lie about it.
>>
> 
> Even a beginner can see that this is a verified fact:
> H, programmed to return false, 

H is not programmed to return false. H is programmed
to detect and reject non-halting behavior patterns:
(a) Infinite loop
(b) Infinite recursion
(c) Recursive simulation

> also returns false when simulated (unless 
> aborted), so D, when correctly simulated, halts (unless aborted).

Of every implementation of H that is merely specified to simulate
its input and no other details of H are specified: No D simulated
by H ever reaches its own final state at line 06 and halts.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer