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From: immibis <news@immibis.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Can any pathological input thwart a simulating abort decider?
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2024 23:15:09 +0100
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On 23/03/24 20:48, olcott wrote:
> On 3/23/2024 2:42 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 23.mrt.2024 om 20:26 schreef olcott:
>>> On 3/23/2024 1:57 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 23.mrt.2024 om 17:53 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 3/23/2024 11:31 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 23.mrt.2024 om 17:08 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 3/23/2024 9:43 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 23.mrt.2024 om 14:58 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2024 4:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Op 22.mrt.2024 om 19:41 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>> 09 void main()
>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> H is a simulating abort decider that supposed to
>>>>>>>>>>> correctly determine whether or not it needs to abort
>>>>>>>>>>> the simulation of any pathological inputs that are
>>>>>>>>>>> attempting to thwart this abort decision.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> H must abort every simulated input that would not
>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise halt to prevent its own non-termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is a self-evident verified fact that every H(D,D)
>>>>>>>>>>> that decides to abort its simulated D(D) is correct
>>>>>>>>>>> in doing so because this does prevent its own
>>>>>>>>>>> non-termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is self-evident that when H is programmed to abort and 
>>>>>>>>>> return false, then [the simulated] D will 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> immediately stop running never having reached its last 
>>>>>>>>> instruction to halt.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As can be seen above, if H returns false in line 03, then D will 
>>>>>>>> go to line 04 and line 06 and halt (unless aborted).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You still do not understand that functions called in infinite
>>>>>>> recursion never return to their caller, thus must have grossly
>>>>>>> exaggerated your programming skill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even a beginner in C will see that if the simulated D, using the H 
>>>>>> that is programmed to abort and return false, will continue with 
>>>>>> line 04 then line 06 and halt (unless aborted).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>> 02 {
>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>> 07 }
>>>>> 08
>>>>> 09 void main()
>>>>> 10 {
>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>
>>>>> That is the strawman deception we are only talking about the
>>>>> fact that the D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach
>>>>> its own line 06 and halt.
>>>>
>>>> Denying a verified fact is not a strong rebuttal.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the simulated D calls its simulator this call cannot possibly
>>>>>>> return to its caller. The relationship between the simulated D(D)
>>>>>>> and its simulator makes a call D(D) to its own simulator isomorphic
>>>>>>> to infinite recursion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is exactly the relation with the simulator that aborts, which 
>>>>>> makes that also the simulated H is programmed to abort and return 
>>>>>> false.
>>>>>> Olcott is again contradicting himself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That the directly executed D(D) is an entirely different instance
>>>>>>> that does not have this same pathological relationship is summed
>>>>>>> up in your own reply.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not talking about a directly executed D, but a simulated D!
>>>>>> I am not talking about a directly executed D, but a simulated D!
>>>>>> I am not talking about a directly executed D, but a simulated D!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This simulated D halts (unless aborted)!
>>>>>
>>>>> D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line
>>>>> 06 and halt. That you say otherwise proves your insufficient
>>>>> programming skill.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems too difficult for olcott to see, what even a beginner 
>>>>>> sees, that H, programmed to return false, also returns false when 
>>>>>> simulated (unless aborted).
>>>>>
>>>>> When I worked at the US Army Corps of engineers an independent
>>>>> contractor rated my programs as the best quality of all of the
>>>>> programs that they reviewed and they reviewed all of the programs.
>>>>
>>>> If true, I am very sorry for olcott, that he is no longer able to 
>>>> see, what even a beginner sees, that H, programmed to return false, 
>>>> also returns false when simulated (unless aborted).
>>>
>>> Everyone with sufficient programming skill can see that this is a
>>> verified fact:
>>>
>>> *D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own final state*
>>> *at line 06 in an infinite number of steps of correct simulation*
>>> Some of these people might lie about it.
>>>
>>
>> Even a beginner can see that this is a verified fact:
>> H, programmed to return false, 
> 
> H is not programmed to return false. H is programmed
> to

H is programmed to return false when the input is D.