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From: olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Can any pathological input thwart a simulating abort decider?
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 19:22:12 -0500
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On 3/25/2024 6:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/25/24 2:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/23/2024 5:19 PM, immibis wrote:
>>> On 23/03/24 20:26, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/23/2024 1:57 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 23.mrt.2024 om 17:53 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 3/23/2024 11:31 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 23.mrt.2024 om 17:08 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2024 9:43 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 23.mrt.2024 om 14:58 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2024 4:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Op 22.mrt.2024 om 19:41 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 void main()
>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> H is a simulating abort decider that supposed to
>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly determine whether or not it needs to abort
>>>>>>>>>>>> the simulation of any pathological inputs that are
>>>>>>>>>>>> attempting to thwart this abort decision.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> H must abort every simulated input that would not
>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise halt to prevent its own non-termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a self-evident verified fact that every H(D,D)
>>>>>>>>>>>> that decides to abort its simulated D(D) is correct
>>>>>>>>>>>> in doing so because this does prevent its own
>>>>>>>>>>>> non-termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is self-evident that when H is programmed to abort and 
>>>>>>>>>>> return false, then [the simulated] D will 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> immediately stop running never having reached its last 
>>>>>>>>>> instruction to halt.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As can be seen above, if H returns false in line 03, then D 
>>>>>>>>> will go to line 04 and line 06 and halt (unless aborted).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You still do not understand that functions called in infinite
>>>>>>>> recursion never return to their caller, thus must have grossly
>>>>>>>> exaggerated your programming skill.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even a beginner in C will see that if the simulated D, using the 
>>>>>>> H that is programmed to abort and return false, will continue 
>>>>>>> with line 04 then line 06 and halt (unless aborted).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>> 08
>>>>>> 09 void main()
>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is the strawman deception we are only talking about the
>>>>>> fact that the D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach
>>>>>> its own line 06 and halt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Denying a verified fact is not a strong rebuttal.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When the simulated D calls its simulator this call cannot possibly
>>>>>>>> return to its caller. The relationship between the simulated D(D)
>>>>>>>> and its simulator makes a call D(D) to its own simulator isomorphic
>>>>>>>> to infinite recursion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is exactly the relation with the simulator that aborts, which 
>>>>>>> makes that also the simulated H is programmed to abort and return 
>>>>>>> false.
>>>>>>> Olcott is again contradicting himself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That the directly executed D(D) is an entirely different instance
>>>>>>>> that does not have this same pathological relationship is summed
>>>>>>>> up in your own reply.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am not talking about a directly executed D, but a simulated D!
>>>>>>> I am not talking about a directly executed D, but a simulated D!
>>>>>>> I am not talking about a directly executed D, but a simulated D!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This simulated D halts (unless aborted)!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line
>>>>>> 06 and halt. That you say otherwise proves your insufficient
>>>>>> programming skill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It seems too difficult for olcott to see, what even a beginner 
>>>>>>> sees, that H, programmed to return false, also returns false when 
>>>>>>> simulated (unless aborted).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I worked at the US Army Corps of engineers an independent
>>>>>> contractor rated my programs as the best quality of all of the
>>>>>> programs that they reviewed and they reviewed all of the programs.
>>>>>
>>>>> If true, I am very sorry for olcott, that he is no longer able to 
>>>>> see, what even a beginner sees, that H, programmed to return false, 
>>>>> also returns false when simulated (unless aborted).
>>>>
>>>> Everyone with sufficient programming skill can see that this is a
>>>> verified fact:
>>>>
>>>> *D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own final state*
>>>> *at line 06 in an infinite number of steps of correct simulation*
>>>> Some of these people might lie about it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Everyone with sufficient programming skill can see that H is not 
>>> defined as part of program D, and if you define H inside program D, 
>>> then it might be possible to tell whether it reaches line 06 or not.
>>
>> *It is stipulated that H must correctly simulate 1 to ∞ steps of D*
>> Every other detail about H is unspecified because it is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> Then your stipulation is just ILLOGICAL, as a given H can only do one 
> thing.

None-the-less they all share the common property that they either
run forever or abort the simulation of their input. All of the other
differences don't make and damn difference at all.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer