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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Categorically exhaustive reasoning applied to the decision to
 abort
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2024 21:53:00 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 3/27/24 9:45 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/27/2024 7:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/27/24 3:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2024 2:09 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 27.mrt.2024 om 15:09 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 3/27/2024 4:55 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 26.mrt.2024 om 15:43 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 3/26/2024 3:51 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 25.mrt.2024 om 23:50 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/24/2024 11:42 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-03-24 03:39:12 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2024 9:54 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24/03/24 03:40, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2024 9:34 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24/03/24 03:15, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2024 8:40 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24/03/24 00:29, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/23/2024 5:58 PM, immibis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23/03/24 16:02, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) H(D,D) that DOES abort its simulation is correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      (ABOUT THIS ABORT DECISION)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      because it would halt and all deciders must 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be a decider it has to give an answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be a halt decider it has to give an answer that is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same as whether the direct execution of its input 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would entail that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tough shit. That is the requirement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I proved otherwise in the parts you erased.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You proved that the requirement is not actually the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirement?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I proved that it cannot be a coherent requirement, it can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be an incoherent requirement. Try and think it through for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Every program/input pair either halts some time, or never 
>>>>>>>>>>>> halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Determining this is a coherent requirement.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That part is coherent.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The part that this determination must be done by a Turing machine
>>>>>>>>>> using descriptions of the program and input is coherent, too.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Every decider is required by definition to only report on what
>>>>>>>>> this input specifies.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> int sum(int x, int y){ return x + y; }
>>>>>>>>> sum(3,4) is not allowed to report on the sum of 5 + 6
>>>>>>>>> even if you really really believe that it should.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Exactly! Therefore H(D,D), where D is based on H that aborts and 
>>>>>>>> returns false, so that D halts, should not return a report about 
>>>>>>>> another D that does not halt, even if you really really believe 
>>>>>>>> that it should.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is enough information for sum(3,4) to compute the sum of 3+4.
>>>>>>> There is NOT enough information for sum(3,4) to compute the sum 
>>>>>>> of 5+6.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is enough information for H1(D,D) to compute Halts(D,D).
>>>>>>> There is NOT enough information for H(D,D) to compute Halts(D,D).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it is possible to create a simulating sum decider that aborts 
>>>>>> sum and returns the sum of 5+6 and then claim that it is right, 
>>>>>> because it has not enough information to calculate 3+4. It is 
>>>>>> possible, but wrong.
>>>>>> The only reason it has not enough information, is that it aborts 
>>>>>> prematurely. That makes the decision to abort wrong. This holds 
>>>>>> for H as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why are you denying reality?
>>>>
>>>> Olcott is frustrated, but wrong.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Can D correctly simulated by H terminate normally?
>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>> 02 {
>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>> 07 }
>>>>> 08
>>>>> 09 void main()
>>>>> 10 {
>>>>> 11   H(D,D);
>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>
>>>>> *Execution Trace*
>>>>> Line 11: main() invokes H(D,D);
>>>>>
>>>>> *keeps repeating* (unless aborted)
>>>>> Line 03: simulated D(D) invokes simulated H(D,D) that simulates D(D)
>>>>
>>>> Wrong. Should be:
>>>> *will return false* (unless aborted)
>>>
>>> There is no possible way that D simulated by any H ever
>>> returns false whether its simulation has been aborted or not.
>>> Are you fibbing about your programming  skill?
>>>
>>
>> But that statement only hold in a world where the only simulator is H, 
> 
> Yes that has always been the freaking point that you deep dodging to run 
> out the clock of my rebuttals.

Which isn't the world you claim to be in, that of COMPUTASTION THEORY.

If you want to talk about a universe with only two "sets" of Programs, H 
and D, then SAY SO, and admit that you are talking about something 
WORTHLESS.

> 
>> and a D that magically changes (and thus not actually a valid model)
>>
> 
> *D IS ALWAYS THESE MACHINE CODE BYTES* 
> 83c4088945fc837dfc007402ebfe8b45fc8be55dc3

And thus is NOT an actual PROGRAM, so outside the bounds of the theory.



> 
>> That is just a LIE.
> 
> Every time you call me a liar puts you closer to
> the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.
> 

Nope, since I speak the truth when I say it.

You just plant yourself deeper when you deny it.

Remember, your "beleif" doesn't matter to God. A LIE is the speaking of 
a FALSEHOOD, whether known or not.

People who honestly beleive the wrong things about God, are still going 
to experience his WRATH, because he gives us enough evidence, if we are 
willing to beleive him. He also gives us enough rope, that we can hang 
ourselves on our own self-deceptions.