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From: DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Making your mind up
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:19:45 -0500
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On 2024-04-10 4:09 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 11:28:11 -0500, DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 2024-04-09 10:24 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>> On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 09:36:07 -0500, DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-04-09 3:40 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 12:14:12 -0500, DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-04-07 10:25 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 17:48:09 -0500, DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-06 2:38 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 16:29:20 -0500, DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-05 11:05 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> There was quite an interesting discussion a few weeks ago on Free Will
>>>>>>>>>>> vs Determinism but it died a death, at least in part due to the
>>>>>>>>>>> departure of some contributors to the Land Beyond GG. I'd like to take
>>>>>>>>>>> up some of the issues again if anyone is interested.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One point made by Hemidactylus that didn't get developed any further
>>>>>>>>>>> was the way that we sometimes give a lot of time and effort into
>>>>>>>>>>> making a decision - he gave the example of buying a car. It's also
>>>>>>>>>>> common for someone to want to "sleep it on it" before making a
>>>>>>>>>>> decision where the decision is important but it is not clear what
>>>>>>>>>>> decision is best. If a decision is essentially predetermined then what
>>>>>>>>>>> is the point of that time and effort or sleeping on it?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you not see that this argument depends on the belief that there was
>>>>>>>>>> an *option* to make the decision earlier under different conditions
>>>>>>>>>> (lack of 'thinking it over' and/or 'sleeping on it'). IOW that free will
>>>>>>>>>> exists. You are 'begging the question'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's actually the complete opposite, I am starting with the assumption
>>>>>>>>> that there is no free will and asking what then is the point in
>>>>>>>>> deliberating over the various options.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> See, right there. My claim is that 'deliberating over the options' is
>>>>>>>> what you are determined by the circumstances to do and is part of the
>>>>>>>> circumstances that determines what you follow it up with. Assuming that
>>>>>>>> there is some "point" beyond this is assuming that free will exists.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      You seem to be taking things a
>>>>>>>>> bit further and saying that if determinism exists then there aren't
>>>>>>>>> any options to begin with but that is just a variation in emphasis, it
>>>>>>>>> doesn't address the question of why we spend so much time pondering
>>>>>>>>> those options when they don't even exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's because the "pondering" is part of the determined action.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That just takes us full circle back to my original question - what is
>>>>>>> the point or the value of that pondering if the decision is
>>>>>>> predetermined?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why does it have to have a 'point' or 'value'?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I've answered that in what I said below about evolution. There
>>>>> is an underlying principle of Cost versus Benefit in Natural
>>>>> Selection; if the benefits from a trait or characteristic outweigh its
>>>>> cost, then that trait Is likely to be selected for; if the cost
>>>>> outweighs the benefits, then it will likely be selected against; if
>>>>> cost and benefit more or less balance out, then it is really down to
>>>>> chance whether or not the trait well survive. As I said already, I see
>>>>> considerable cost involved in this pondering in terms of brain
>>>>> resources, but I don't see any benefits if the decision is determined
>>>>> by external factors. Can you suggest any benefits that would outweigh
>>>>> the cost?
>>>
>> During the (present conditions determined) pause conditions change that
>> cause (determined) better decisions.
>>
>>> Apparently not.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Pre 'pondering' it is
>>>>>> just the determined results (one of which is the pondering) of the
>>>>>> conditions at that time. Post 'pondering' the determined action is the
>>>>>> result of conditions at *that* time which includes any changes due to
>>>>>> the 'pondering' among other changes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In evolutionary terms, I can see various disadvantages to that
>>>>>>> pondering. The brain is the most demanding organ in our body,
>>>>>>> consuming around 20% of the total energy used. Pondering a decision
>>>>>>> can often distract us from other important things we should be using
>>>>>>> our brain for and can indirectly have a very negative affect on our
>>>>>>> lives. It seems to me that it would make sense to weed out unnecessary
>>>>>>> demands unless they have a clear evolutionary advantage. I can't see
>>>>>>> any such evolutionary advantage in pondering being added to a
>>>>>>> predetermined process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How does 'free will' avoid this problem?
>>>>>
>>>>> First of all, I don't think that is really a relevant question - I'm
>>>>> not debating this issue to make a case for free will, I'm challenging
>>>>> the robustness of determinism in its own right. I certainly don't want
>>>>> to fall into the trap of claiming that I can prove Theory B is right
>>>>> by identifying shortcomings in Theory A, something for which I have
>>>>> previously criticised ID, particularly Stephen Meyer. [1]
>>>>>
>>>>> Having said that, I don't think it is a big problem for free will as I
>>>>> can see benefits for pondering in that context. If I have freedom in
>>>>> making my decisions, then that means I am ultimately responsible for
>>>>> those decisions and their outcome. It is obviously beneficial for me
>>>>> to become as good a decision-maker as possible; pondering decisions
>>>>> and all their foreseeable outcomes can help me get better at it.
>>>>>
>>>> Why doesn't that same argument work for the existence of 'pondering' in
>>>> a deterministic scenario?
>>>
>>> What advantage is there in becoming a good decision maker if you
>>> aren't making decisions?
>>>
>> Are you becoming a better decision maker (non-deterministic) or are
>> different conditions determining better 'decisions'?
> 
> What conditions affecting my decision-making have changed from when I
> went to bed last night until I woke this morning?
>
Your brain does not stop doing things while you sleep. Your stomach is 
empty, bladder and bowel full, glucose levels different. Lighting and 
temperature are probably different. etc
All these affect how your brain is operating. >>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> FWIW, the more I read and debate this subject, the more it reminds me
>>>>> of the Nature vs Nurture debate, the "bit of both" answer also applies
>>>>> here.
>>>>>
>>>> Yep. It's just the spectre (ha) of the supernatural that seems to
>>>> inevitably arise when 'free will' is invoked that bothers me.
>>>
>>> What bothers me is when people dismiss things out of hand just because
>>> they might have even a hint of the supernatural.
>>>
>> Hint? Is is supernatural
> 
> Funny how in the whole discussion about free will and determinism, you
> are the only one to raise the supernatural.
>
see just below

>> and that bothers me because it invalidates much
>> of what we believe we know about the universe.
> 
> I think at this stage, you have a broad idea of my beliefs but just to
> summarise them - I'm a religious believer (Catholic), I'm a dualist
> inclined towards panpsychism and I believe there is such a thing as
> free will. I don't reject any scientific knowledge or *evidence-based*
> conclusions, finding my beliefs readily compatible with them. What in
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