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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Undecidability based on epistemological antinomies V2
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2024 18:51:30 -0400
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On 4/19/24 10:52 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/18/2024 8:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 4/18/24 9:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/18/2024 5:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 4/18/24 10:50 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/17/2024 10:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/17/24 10:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> ...14 Every epistemological antinomy can likewise be used for a 
>>>>>>> similar
>>>>>>> undecidability proof...(Gödel 1931:43-44)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Parphrased as*
>>>>>>> Every expression X that cannot possibly be true or false proves 
>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>> formal system F cannot correctly determine whether X is true or 
>>>>>>> false.
>>>>>>> Which shows that X is undecidable in F.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just more of your LIES and STUPIDITY.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which shows that F is incomplete, even though X cannot possibly be a
>>>>>>> proposition in F because propositions must be true or false.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that ISN'T the definition of "Incomplete", so you are just LYING.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Godel showed that a statment, THAT WAS TRUE, couldn't be proven in F.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You don't even seem to understand what the statement G actually 
>>>>>> is, because all you look at are the "clift notes" versions, and 
>>>>>> don't even understand that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remember, G is a statement about the non-existance of a number 
>>>>>> that has a specific property. Until you understand that, your 
>>>>>> continued talking about this is just more LIES and DECIET, proving 
>>>>>> your absoulute STUPIDITY.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A proposition is a central concept in the philosophy of language,
>>>>>>> semantics, logic, and related fields, often characterized as the 
>>>>>>> primary
>>>>>>> bearer of truth or falsity.
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right, and if you don't know what the proposition is that you are 
>>>>>> arguing about, you are just proven to be a stupid liar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are going to continue to be mean and call me names I will stop
>>>>> talking to you. Even if you stop being mean and stop calling me names
>>>>> if you continue to dogmatically say that I am wrong without pointing
>>>>> out all of the details of my error, I will stop talking to you.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is either a civil debate and an honest dialogue or you will
>>>>> hear nothing form me.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I say you are WRONG, because you ARE.
>>>>
>>>> You say Godel's statement that is unprovable, is unprovable because 
>>>> it is an epistimalogical antinomy, when it isn't.
>>>>
>>>> It is a statement about the non-existance of a number that satisfies 
>>>> a particular property, which will be a truth bearing statement (The 
>>>> number must either exist or it doesn't)
>>>>
>>>> THAT MAKES YOU A LIAR.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>> *That is NOT how undecidability generically works and you know it*
>>
>> Well, Godel wasn't talking about "undecidability", but incompletenwss, 
>> which is what the WORDS you used talked about. (Read what you said 
>> above).
>>
>> INCOMPLETENESS is EXACTLY about the inability to prove statements that 
>> are true.
>>
> 
> I agree with this, and some other sources agree with this.

So, do you argree that Godel showed a proposition that must be true and 
also unprovable?

Or do you think there can exist a statement that is false but probvable?

Remember, Godel's G was the statement that there does not exist a number 
g that satisfies a specific primative recursive relationship.

And that relationship was derived such that any number g that satisifies 
it, encodes a proof of the statement G, and any such proof could be 
encoded into such a number.

> 
>> Godel's proof you are quoting from had NOTHING to do with undecidability, 
> 
> *Other sources disagree*
> 
> *These two sources define Undecidability as Incompleteness*
> Incomplete(F) ≡ ∃x ∈ L ((L ⊬  x) ∧ (L ⊬ ¬x))

Right

> 
> Undecidable
> Not decidable as a result of being
> *neither formally provable nor unprovable*
> https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Undecidable.html
> 
> Undecidability
> The non-existence of an algorithm or the
> *impossibility of proving or disproving a*
> *statement within a formal system*
> https://encyclopediaofmath.org/wiki/Undecidability#:~:text=The%20non%2Dexistence%20of%20an,statement%20within%20a%20formal%20system.


Which were NOT definition of "Undecidability" at the time of Godel, so 
he could NOT have meant that,

That is just Eisegesis.

Note, other sources do NOT add that meaning, because it is new, for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undecidable_problem
or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decidability_(logic)

> 
> 
>> in fact, the "computation" he described in the Primative Recursive 
>> Relationship built is specifically one that is most assuredly 
>> computable (for ANY number give to it, it WILL answer yes or no in 
>> finite number of operations).
>>
>> So, who has been lying about what they are talkinga about? (or doesn't 
>> know the difference in the topics).
>>
>> I answereed what you were talking about, even though it didn't match 
>> your subject, because I understand your general confusion on the topics.
>>
>> So, you are just needing to yell at YOUSELF for using the wrong word, 
>> which just shows your total ignorance about what you are talking about.
>>
>> Do you REALLY wonder why I point out your inability to put together a 
>> coherent argument?
>>
>> You just showed yourself guilty of trying to use a Red Herring to 
>> deflect the arguement about how you are totally ignorant about Godel's 
>> argement, and that you LIE about what he said, because you have no 
>> idea what he said, but try to put your own false words into his mouth,
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> That you repeat the error after being corrected, because apparently 
>>>> you can't understand how you are wrong, makes you a PATHOLOGICAL LIAR.
>>>>
>>>> You don't even understand what Godel's G even is, but try to refer 
>>>> to it by the "Reader's Digest" version that talks about its 
>>>> interpretation and what can be proved from it in the meta-logic 
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========