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From: The Last Doctor <mike@xenocyte.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.drwho
Subject: Re: From the Archives .....
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 16:22:51 -0000 (UTC)
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The Doctor <doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> wrote:
> In article <v00i9e$3mvjr$1@dont-email.me>,
> The Last Doctor  <mike@xenocyte.com> wrote:
>> The Doctor <doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> In article <v00f5u$3m6k4$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> The Last Doctor  <mike@xenocyte.com> wrote:
>>>> The Doctor <doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>> In article <uvtoin$30ajm$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>> The True Doctor  <agamemnon@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/04/2024 13:13, Daniel70 wrote:
>>>>>>> Tonight's post from the past concerns Regeneration Limits, a topic that 
>>>>>>> has been close to the Hearts of some here-abouts, recently!!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Quote from 'Olton' in the 'Favourite Dr Who' thread of June 1991
>>>>>>> In "Nightmare of Eden," the Doctor says something about timelords having 
>>>>>>> 125 lives, and that he had had about 190. This clearly doesn't "jive" 
>>>>>>> with other established facts, unless you want to think that he means 
>>>>>>> that their lifespan is 125 times the length of a human's. That's 
>>>>>>> possible, but the context that he uses it in implies 125 regenerations.
>>>>>>> End Quote
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So it would seem that Chris Chibnall was not the first to suggest that 
>>>>>>> there had been many re-generations PRIOR to Hartnell (over and above the 
>>>>>>> "The Brain of Morbius" confusion).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Discuss.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The Deadly Assassin which was 3 series earlier firmly establishes a 
>>>>>> limit of 12 regenerations and that is repeated by both the Doctor and 
>>>>>> the Master in The Keeper of Traken, the 4th Doctor's penultimate story.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Maybe he was talking about going undercover 190 times or on 190 
>>>>>> different planets or different historical periods.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Good facts AGA!
>>>> 
>>>> Facts? Facts? (Not that I think there was any such discussion in Nightmare
>>>> of Eden, but maybe my memory of that is faulty. Or maybe it’s another of
>>>> those novelisation inventions like the nonsense Aggie loves from
>>>> Underworld.)
>>>> 
>>>> But wait - Aggie is saying that Deadly Assassin predates Nightmare of Eden
>>>> therefore the 12 regeneration limit is absolute. 
>>>> 
>>>> But Brain of Morbius came before that, and on screen showed 11 faces of the
>>>> Doctor prior to Tom Baker’s. Therefore using Aggie’s logic, Peter Davison
>>>> was the 13th and final Doctor and when he says “Feels different
>> this time”
>>>> he is dying. Doctor Who ended with Caves of Androzani in March 1984 and
>>>> every episode since has been a fever dream of the dying Doctor.
>>>> 
>>>> (I am of course not taking account of the retcon in the novelisation that
>>>> suggests the 8 unknown faces are those of Morbius. Morbius is clearly
>>>> winning the mind duel and it is the Doctor who is being pushed back, and
>>>> this was Philip Hinchcliffe’s intent).
>>>> 
>>>> Unless, of course, we go back further to The War Games, when the Doctor
>>>> reveals that his people can “live forever, barring accidents”. 
>> But perhaps
>>>> that can be construed as suggesting that Time Lords who do not suffer
>>>> twelve fatal accidents never reach their thirteenth and final incarnations.
>>>> 
>>>> Which explains the need for the Matrix - millions of years of memories
>>>> couldn’t possibly all be retained in one mind, so some sort of external
>>>> augmentation and storage would be very much needed.
>>>> 
>>>> But of course the idea that there had been earlier Doctors didn’t originate
>>>> with Morbius.
>>>> 
>>>> Whitaker's draft scripts (for The Power Of The Daleks) revealed that the
>>>> Doctor had been “renewed” before; he was to open a drawer in the console
>>>> which contained relics from his previous incarnations, including an earring
>>>> and a metal bracelet (which in the 60s would have suggested that at least
>>>> one previous Doctor had been female). The scripts also specified the
>>>> Doctor's age as 750 years, included various references to his grandchild
>>>> Susan -- whose present location the Doctor could no longer recall -- and
>>>> hinted that it might have been the Daleks who had destroyed his homeworld.
>>>> All this material was cut in Dennis Spooner’s rewrites for time - much
>>>> additional background was removed to fit the very complex story and
>>>> introduction of the new Doctor into six episodes.
>>>> 
>>>> Then we move forward again to the 80s and The Five Doctors, where the
>>>> Master reveals that he has been offered a whole new cycle of regenerations.
>>>> So the limit of 12 was never absolute, and the Master’s whole motivation
>>>> for The Deadly Assassin is negated.
>>>> 
>>>> In short, a rigid insistence on a specific canon is pointless when it comes
>>>> to Doctor Who. And paying any attention to Aggie, who insists on repeating
>>>> his delusions about the show as “facts”, is a sure sign of a very limited
>>>> intellect. So know you know why Dave says what he says.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> You seem to be skewered MM!
>>> 
>> I have absolutely no idea what you think you mean by that Dave.
>> 
> 
> You do not know what skewered mean?

I absolutely do, in English. However I don’t think that when I demolish
Aggie’s silly argument and then point out that only an idiot would pay
attention to a fool who claims Doctor Who ended in 2017 when by the middle
of June there will in actuality have been four more seasons since then,
that is me being “skewered” in any sense of the word in English.

Therefore I asked what YOU think you mean by it, as either the discussion
has gone completely over your head and you are imagining that something
completely different was written from what was actually written, or you are
using a unique definition of “skewered” that somehow means something like
“brilliant”.

It’s a simple request. What do you think you mean by “skewered”?

-- 
“The timelines and … canon … are rupturing” - the Doctor