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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Undecidability based on epistemological antinomies V2 --H(D,D)-- Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 10:34:14 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 229 Message-ID: <v0ghhm$3oudg$2@dont-email.me> References: <uvq0sg$21m7a$1@dont-email.me> <uvq359$1doq3$4@i2pn2.org> <uvrbvs$2acf7$1@dont-email.me> <uvs70t$1h01f$1@i2pn2.org> <uvsgcl$2i80k$1@dont-email.me> <uvsj4v$1h01e$1@i2pn2.org> <uvubo2$34nh3$1@dont-email.me> <uvvsap$3i5q8$1@dont-email.me> <v00mf6$3nu0r$1@dont-email.me> <v02gu5$6quf$1@dont-email.me> <v038om$bitp$2@dont-email.me> <v05b0k$sivu$1@dont-email.me> <v05r5e$vvml$2@dont-email.me> <v05vl4$1165d$1@dont-email.me> <v0679k$12sq2$1@dont-email.me> <v07r2j$1h57l$1@dont-email.me> <v08gn4$1lpta$2@dont-email.me> <v0ag7u$27jkb$1@dont-email.me> <v0b8np$2d4ja$1@dont-email.me> <v0c317$2538n$1@i2pn2.org> <v0c7fn$2k0tc$1@dont-email.me> <v0d3h1$2t938$1@dont-email.me> <v0doho$31mkn$2@dont-email.me> <v0forg$3j1dk$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 17:34:15 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="1330034b44815d6f0f4bef63cec1ba13"; logging-data="3963312"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX193JR6AXJCCFXpwhXIHTgPe" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:cEmg8KX68Forhe84BtUGdgFk8/s= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <v0forg$3j1dk$1@dont-email.me> Bytes: 11043 On 4/26/2024 3:32 AM, Mikko wrote: > On 2024-04-25 14:15:20 +0000, olcott said: > >> On 4/25/2024 3:16 AM, Mikko wrote: >>> On 2024-04-25 00:17:57 +0000, olcott said: >>> >>>> On 4/24/2024 6:01 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> On 4/24/24 11:33 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 4/24/2024 3:35 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>> On 2024-04-23 14:31:00 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/23/2024 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-22 17:37:55 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/2024 10:27 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-22 14:10:54 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/2024 4:35 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-21 14:44:37 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/2024 2:57 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-20 15:20:05 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/20/2024 2:54 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-19 18:04:48 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we create a three-valued logic system that has these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> three values: {True, False, Nonsense} >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Such three valued logic has the problem that a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tautology of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ordinary propositional logic cannot be trusted to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true. For >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example, in ordinary logic A ∨ ¬A is always true. This >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some ordinary proofs of ordinary theorems are no longer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> valid and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you need to accept the possibility that a theory that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is complete >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in ordinary logic is incomplete in your logic. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I only used three-valued logic as a teaching device. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whenever an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expression of language has the value of {Nonsense} then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rejected and not allowed to be used in any logical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operations. It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is basically invalid input. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You cannot teach because you lack necessary skills. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't need any teaching device. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is too close to ad homimen. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you think my reasoning is incorrect then point to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> error >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in my reasoning. Saying that in your opinion I am a bad >>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is too close to ad hominem because it refers to your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> me and utterly bypasses any of my reasoning. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it isn't. You introduced youtself as a topic of >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so >>>>>>>>>>>>> you are a legitimate topic of discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't claim that there be any reasoning, incorrect or >>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you claim I am a bad teacher you must point out what is >>>>>>>>>>>> wrong with >>>>>>>>>>>> the lesson otherwise your claim that I am a bad teacher is >>>>>>>>>>>> essentially >>>>>>>>>>>> an as hominem attack. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You are not a teacher, bad or otherwise. That you lack skills >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> happen to be necessary for teaching is obvious from you postings >>>>>>>>>>> here. A teacher needs to understand human psychology but you >>>>>>>>>>> don't. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You may be correct that I am a terrible teacher. >>>>>>>>>> None-the-less Mathematicians might not have very much >>>>>>>>>> understanding >>>>>>>>>> of the link between proof theory and computability. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sume mathematicians do have very much understanding of that. >>>>>>>>> But that >>>>>>>>> link is not needed for understanding and solving problems >>>>>>>>> separately >>>>>>>>> in the two areas. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> When I refer to rejecting an invalid input math would seem to >>>>>>>>>> construe >>>>>>>>>> this as nonsense, where as computability theory would totally >>>>>>>>>> understand. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> People working on computability theory do not understand >>>>>>>>> "invalid input" >>>>>>>>> as "impossible input". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The proof then shows, for any program f that might determine >>>>>>>> whether >>>>>>>> programs halt, that a "pathological" program g, called with some >>>>>>>> input, >>>>>>>> can pass its own source and its input to f and then specifically >>>>>>>> do the >>>>>>>> opposite of what f predicts g will do. No f can exist that >>>>>>>> handles this >>>>>>>> case, thus showing undecidability. >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem# >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So then they must believe that there exists an H that does >>>>>>>> correctly >>>>>>>> determine the halt status of every input, some inputs are simply >>>>>>>> more difficult than others, no inputs are impossible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That "must" is false as it does not follow from anything. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sure it does. If there are no "impossible" inputs that entails >>>>>> that all inputs are possible. When all inputs are possible then >>>>>> the halting problem proof is wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>> *Termination Analyzer H is Not Fooled by Pathological Input D* >>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369971402_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D >>>>>> >>>>>> Everyone that objects to the statement that H(D,D) correctly >>>>>> determines the halt status of its inputs say that believe that >>>>>> H(D,D) must report on the behavior of the D(D) that invokes H(D,D). >>>>> >>>>> Right, because that IS the definition of a Halt Decider. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Everyone here takes the definition of a halt decider to be >>>> required to determine the halt status of the program that >>>> invokes this halt decider, knowing full well that the program >>>> that invokes this halt decider IS NOT ITS INPUT. >>>> >>>> All these same people also know the computable functions only >>>> operate on their inputs and are not allowed to consider anything >>>> else. >>>> >>>> Computable functions are the formalized analogue of the intuitive >>>> notion >>>> of algorithms, in the sense that a function is computable if there >>>> exists an algorithm that can do the job of the function, i.e. given an >>>> input of the function domain it can return the corresponding output. >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_function >>>> >>>> When the definition of a halt decider contradicts the definition of >>>> a computable function they can't both be right. >>> >>> When the definitions of a term contradicts the definition of another >>> term >>> then both of them are wrong. A correct definition does not contradict >>> anything other than a different definition of the same term. >>> >> >> *Wrong* > > That "Wrong" is wrong as it refers to a true statement. > ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========