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Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: D simulated by H never halts no matter what H does Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2024 23:07:48 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 172 Message-ID: <v0html$5tmd$1@dont-email.me> References: <uvq0sg$21m7a$1@dont-email.me> <uvq359$1doq3$4@i2pn2.org> <uvrbvs$2acf7$1@dont-email.me> <uvs70t$1h01f$1@i2pn2.org> <uvsgcl$2i80k$1@dont-email.me> <uvsj4v$1h01e$1@i2pn2.org> <uvubo2$34nh3$1@dont-email.me> <uvvsap$3i5q8$1@dont-email.me> <v00mf6$3nu0r$1@dont-email.me> <v02gu5$6quf$1@dont-email.me> <v038om$bitp$2@dont-email.me> <v05b0k$sivu$1@dont-email.me> <v05r5e$vvml$2@dont-email.me> <v05vl4$1165d$1@dont-email.me> <v0679k$12sq2$1@dont-email.me> <v07r2j$1h57l$1@dont-email.me> <v08gn4$1lpta$2@dont-email.me> <v0ag7u$27jkb$1@dont-email.me> <v0b8np$2d4ja$1@dont-email.me> <v0c317$2538n$1@i2pn2.org> <v0c7fn$2k0tc$1@dont-email.me> <v0d3h1$2t938$1@dont-email.me> <v0doho$31mkn$2@dont-email.me> <v0forg$3j1dk$1@dont-email.me> <v0ghhm$3oudg$2@dont-email.me> <v0gk5q$2a19r$5@i2pn2.org> <v0gmrt$3qd6i$1@dont-email.me> <v0hfab$3vjo8$1@dont-email.me> <v0hgn3$2a19s$7@i2pn2.org> <v0hl90$4ehj$1@dont-email.me> <v0hna7$2a19s$8@i2pn2.org> <v0hpt4$59oq$1@dont-email.me> <v0hsd2$2a19s$9@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 06:07:49 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="94abfe76188a905a3abc96eb60b79e1c"; logging-data="194253"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18rRnEohtSqearcz2TJ5VP6" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:3ZbyKSSiOrdoPYv39ExQgzu2PsQ= In-Reply-To: <v0hsd2$2a19s$9@i2pn2.org> Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 8640 On 4/26/2024 10:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 4/26/24 11:02 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 4/26/2024 9:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>> On 4/26/24 9:43 PM, olcott wrote: >>>> On 4/26/2024 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>> On 4/26/24 8:02 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>> On 4/26/2024 12:05 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 11:19 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 11:34 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 3:32 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-25 14:15:20 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x) // ptr is pointer to int function >>>>>>>>>>> 02 { >>>>>>>>>>> 03 int Halt_Status = H(x, x); >>>>>>>>>>> 04 if (Halt_Status) >>>>>>>>>>> 05 HERE: goto HERE; >>>>>>>>>>> 06 return Halt_Status; >>>>>>>>>>> 07 } >>>>>>>>>>> 08 >>>>>>>>>>> 09 void main() >>>>>>>>>>> 10 { >>>>>>>>>>> 11 D(D); >>>>>>>>>>> 12 } >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That H(D,D) must report on the behavior of its caller is the >>>>>>>>>>> one that is incorrect. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What H(D,D) must report is independet of what procedure (if any) >>>>>>>>>> calls it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thus when H(D,D) correctly reports that its input D(D) cannot >>>>>>>>> possibly >>>>>>>>> reach its own line 6 and halt no matter what H does then H can >>>>>>>>> abort its >>>>>>>>> input and report that its input D(D) does not halt. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But since the program D(D) DOES reach its own line 6 when run, >>>>>>>> because H aborts its simulation and return 0 (since that is what >>>>>>>> you say this H will do), your statement is PROVEN TO BE A LIE, >>>>>>>> and you "logic" just a collection of contradictions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 thus when >>>>>>> we do >>>>>>> not use the strawman deception to refer to a different D then we >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> that D simulated by H never halts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The fact that the D(D) executed in main does halt is none of H's >>>>>>>>> business because H is not allowed to report on the behavior of its >>>>>>>>> caller. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In other words, H doesn't need to report on the Behavior of the >>>>>>>> Program described by its input because it isn't actually a Halt >>>>>>>> Decider, because you are just a LIAR. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyone knowing the theory of computation knows that H is not >>>>>>> allowed to >>>>>>> report on the behavior of its caller. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In computability theory and computational complexity theory, an >>>>>>> undecidable problem is a decision problem for which it is proved >>>>>>> to be >>>>>>> impossible to construct an algorithm that always leads to a >>>>>>> correct yes- >>>>>>> or-no answer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undecidable_problem >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The behavior of the simulated D(D) before H aborts its simulation is >>>>>>> different than the behavior of the executed D(D) after H has aborted >>>>>>> its simulation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Every time that a simulated input would never stop running unless >>>>>>> aborted the simulating termination analyzer must abort this >>>>>>> simulation >>>>>>> to prevent its own infinite execution. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> H(D,D) is a case of this H1(D,D) is not a case of this even though >>>>>>> the only difference between H and H1 is that D calls H and D does >>>>>>> not call H1. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> D simulated by H would never stop running unless aborted and cannot >>>>>>> possibly reach its own line 06 and halt no matter what H does. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thus whenever we do not use the strawman deception to refer to a >>>>>>> different D we know that D simulated by H specifies a non-halting >>>>>>> sequence of configurations to H. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *This might be a more succinct way of summing that up* >>>>>> When you understand that D simulated by H cannot possibly reach >>>>>> past its own line 03 (thus cannot possibly halt) no matter what H >>>>>> does and >>>>> >>>>> But since H does whatever H does, if H aborts and returns 0, the >>>>> the direct execution of D, which is what actually matters, DOES get >>>>> to that point. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That is another much less useful way to make a universally correct >>>> termination analyzer: >>>> >>>> int H(ptr x, ptr y) >>>> { >>>> printf("The input program does whatever it does!\n"); >>>> return 777; // code for it does what it does >>>> } >>> >>> But that doesn't make H answer the question. >>> >>> I guess you don't understand what I am saying. >>> >>> You said "no matter what H does", but that is a MEANINGLESS >>> statement, because H will do what H is programmed to do, so we don't >>> need to look at other behavior, but just the behavior that H ac >>> >>>> >>>> It can be verified through ordinary software engineering that D(D) >>>> simulated H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03. >>> >>> >>> Yes, but that is just a lying RED HERRING, as the question isn't >>> about what H's simulation of the input does, but what the program the >>> input actually represents does when run. >>> >>> YOu are just effectively admitting that you are nothing but a stupid >>> liar that doesn't know what he is talking about. >>> >>>> >>>> It can be verified through computer science that this means that >>>> D(D) simulated H by never reaches its own final state and halts whether >>>> H aborts its simulation or not. >>> >>> Which, since this H DOES abort its simulation is trying to introduce >>> a red herring. >>> >> >> D(D) simulated by H never halts >> D(D) simulated by H never halts >> D(D) simulated by H never halts >> D(D) simulated by H never halts >> D(D) simulated by H never halts > > STRAWMAN > > The question is does the conputation described by the input halt. > A method that I used very effectively on another forum and made much progress with is utterly insisting that we cannot move on to any additional point until we have 100% complete mutual agreement on the current point. If we (possibly falsely assume) that H(D,D) is supposed to report on the behavior of D(D) simulated by H and we understand that D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past its own line 3 thus cannot reach its own final state at line 6 and halt ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========