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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: D simulated by H never halts no matter what H does V3
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 00:34:09 -0500
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On 4/26/2024 10:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 4/26/24 11:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/26/2024 9:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 4/26/24 9:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2024 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 4/26/24 8:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 12:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 11:19 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 11:34 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 3:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-25 14:15:20 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>> 09 void main()
>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>> 11   D(D);
>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That H(D,D) must report on the behavior of its caller is the
>>>>>>>>>>> one that is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What H(D,D) must report is independet of what procedure (if any)
>>>>>>>>>> calls it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thus when H(D,D) correctly reports that its input D(D) cannot 
>>>>>>>>> possibly
>>>>>>>>> reach its own line 6 and halt no matter what H does then H can 
>>>>>>>>> abort its
>>>>>>>>> input and report that its input D(D) does not halt.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But since the program D(D) DOES reach its own line 6 when run, 
>>>>>>>> because H aborts its simulation and return 0 (since that is what 
>>>>>>>> you say this H will do), your statement is PROVEN TO BE A LIE, 
>>>>>>>> and you "logic" just a collection of contradictions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 thus when 
>>>>>>> we do
>>>>>>> not use the strawman deception to refer to a different D then we 
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> that D simulated by H never halts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The fact that the D(D) executed in main does halt is none of H's
>>>>>>>>> business because H is not allowed to report on the behavior of its
>>>>>>>>> caller.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In other words, H doesn't need to report on the Behavior of the 
>>>>>>>> Program described by its input because it isn't actually a Halt 
>>>>>>>> Decider, because you are just a LIAR.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone knowing the theory of computation knows that H is not 
>>>>>>> allowed to
>>>>>>> report on the behavior of its caller.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In computability theory and computational complexity theory, an
>>>>>>> undecidable problem is a decision problem for which it is proved 
>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>> impossible to construct an algorithm that always leads to a 
>>>>>>> correct yes-
>>>>>>> or-no answer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undecidable_problem
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The behavior of the simulated D(D) before H aborts its simulation is
>>>>>>> different than the behavior of the executed D(D) after H has aborted
>>>>>>> its simulation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Every time that a simulated input would never stop running unless
>>>>>>> aborted the simulating termination analyzer must abort this 
>>>>>>> simulation
>>>>>>> to prevent its own infinite execution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> H(D,D) is a case of this H1(D,D) is not a case of this even though
>>>>>>> the only difference between H and H1 is that D calls H and D does
>>>>>>> not call H1.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> D simulated by H would never stop running unless aborted and cannot
>>>>>>> possibly reach its own line 06 and halt no matter what H does.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thus whenever we do not use the strawman deception to refer to a
>>>>>>> different D we know that D simulated by H specifies a non-halting
>>>>>>> sequence of configurations to H.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *This might be a more succinct way of summing that up*
>>>>>> When you understand that D simulated by H cannot possibly reach 
>>>>>> past its own line 03 (thus cannot possibly halt) no matter what H 
>>>>>> does and
>>>>>
>>>>> But since H does whatever H does, if H aborts and returns 0, the 
>>>>> the direct execution of D, which is what actually matters, DOES get 
>>>>> to that point.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is another much less useful way to make a universally correct
>>>> termination analyzer:
>>>>
>>>> int H(ptr x, ptr y)
>>>> {
>>>>    printf("The input program does whatever it does!\n");
>>>>    return 777; // code for it does what it does
>>>> }
>>>
>>> But that doesn't make H answer the question.
>>>
>>> I guess you don't understand what I am saying.
>>>
>>> You said "no matter what H does", but that is a MEANINGLESS 
>>> statement, because H will do what H is programmed to do, so we don't 
>>> need to look at other behavior, but just the behavior that H ac
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It can be verified through ordinary software engineering that D(D)
>>>> simulated H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but that is just a lying RED HERRING, as the question isn't 
>>> about what H's simulation of the input does, but what the program the 
>>> input actually represents does when run.
>>>
>>> YOu are just effectively admitting that you are nothing but a stupid 
>>> liar that doesn't know what he is talking about.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It can be verified through computer science that this means that 
>>>> D(D) simulated H by never reaches its own final state and halts whether
>>>> H aborts its simulation or not.
>>>
>>> Which, since this H DOES abort its simulation is trying to introduce 
>>> a red herring.
>>>
>>
>> D(D) simulated by H never halts
>> D(D) simulated by H never halts
>> D(D) simulated by H never halts
>> D(D) simulated by H never halts
>> D(D) simulated by H never halts
> 
> STRAWMAN

A method that I used very effectively on another forum and made much
progress with is utterly insisting that we cannot move on to any
additional point until we have 100% complete mutual agreement on
the current point.

(1) If we (possibly falsely assume) that H(D,D) is supposed to report
on the behavior of D(D) simulated by H and

(2) we understand that D(D) simulated by H cannot possibly reach past
its own line 3 thus cannot reach its own final state at line 6 and halt

then (within this possibly false assumption) (1) and the understanding 
of (2) it <is> correct for H to abort its simulation and report halting.

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