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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: D simulated by H never halts no matter what H does V3
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 12:51:17 -0500
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On 4/27/2024 12:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 4/27/24 10:32 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/27/2024 6:45 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 4/27/24 1:34 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2024 10:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 4/26/24 11:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 9:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 9:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 8:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 12:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 11:19 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 11:34 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 3:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-25 14:15:20 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 void main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   D(D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That H(D,D) must report on the behavior of its caller is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one that is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What H(D,D) must report is independet of what procedure 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (if any)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus when H(D,D) correctly reports that its input D(D) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach its own line 6 and halt no matter what H does then H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can abort its
>>>>>>>>>>>>> input and report that its input D(D) does not halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But since the program D(D) DOES reach its own line 6 when 
>>>>>>>>>>>> run, because H aborts its simulation and return 0 (since 
>>>>>>>>>>>> that is what you say this H will do), your statement is 
>>>>>>>>>>>> PROVEN TO BE A LIE, and you "logic" just a collection of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> contradictions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 thus 
>>>>>>>>>>> when we do
>>>>>>>>>>> not use the strawman deception to refer to a different D then 
>>>>>>>>>>> we know
>>>>>>>>>>> that D simulated by H never halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that the D(D) executed in main does halt is none 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of H's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> business because H is not allowed to report on the behavior 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of its
>>>>>>>>>>>>> caller.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, H doesn't need to report on the Behavior of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the Program described by its input because it isn't actually 
>>>>>>>>>>>> a Halt Decider, because you are just a LIAR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone knowing the theory of computation knows that H is not 
>>>>>>>>>>> allowed to
>>>>>>>>>>> report on the behavior of its caller.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In computability theory and computational complexity theory, an
>>>>>>>>>>> undecidable problem is a decision problem for which it is 
>>>>>>>>>>> proved to be
>>>>>>>>>>> impossible to construct an algorithm that always leads to a 
>>>>>>>>>>> correct yes-
>>>>>>>>>>> or-no answer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undecidable_problem
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The behavior of the simulated D(D) before H aborts its 
>>>>>>>>>>> simulation is
>>>>>>>>>>> different than the behavior of the executed D(D) after H has 
>>>>>>>>>>> aborted
>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Every time that a simulated input would never stop running 
>>>>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>>>>> aborted the simulating termination analyzer must abort this 
>>>>>>>>>>> simulation
>>>>>>>>>>> to prevent its own infinite execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) is a case of this H1(D,D) is not a case of this even 
>>>>>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>>>>>> the only difference between H and H1 is that D calls H and D 
>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>> not call H1.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> D simulated by H would never stop running unless aborted and 
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> possibly reach its own line 06 and halt no matter what H does.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thus whenever we do not use the strawman deception to refer to a
>>>>>>>>>>> different D we know that D simulated by H specifies a 
>>>>>>>>>>> non-halting
>>>>>>>>>>> sequence of configurations to H.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *This might be a more succinct way of summing that up*
>>>>>>>>>> When you understand that D simulated by H cannot possibly 
>>>>>>>>>> reach past its own line 03 (thus cannot possibly halt) no 
>>>>>>>>>> matter what H does and
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But since H does whatever H does, if H aborts and returns 0, 
>>>>>>>>> the the direct execution of D, which is what actually matters, 
>>>>>>>>> DOES get to that point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is another much less useful way to make a universally correct
>>>>>>>> termination analyzer:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> int H(ptr x, ptr y)
>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>    printf("The input program does whatever it does!\n");
>>>>>>>>    return 777; // code for it does what it does
>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that doesn't make H answer the question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess you don't understand what I am saying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You said "no matter what H does", but that is a MEANINGLESS 
>>>>>>> statement, because H will do what H is programmed to do, so we 
>>>>>>> don't need to look at other behavior, but just the behavior that 
>>>>>>> H ac
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It can be verified through ordinary software engineering that D(D)
>>>>>>>> simulated H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but that is just a lying RED HERRING, as the question isn't 
>>>>>>> about what H's simulation of the input does, but what the program 
>>>>>>> the input actually represents does when run.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> YOu are just effectively admitting that you are nothing but a 
>>>>>>> stupid liar that doesn't know what he is talking about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It can be verified through computer science that this means that 
>>>>>>>> D(D) simulated H by never reaches its own final state and halts 
>>>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>>> H aborts its simulation or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which, since this H DOES abort its simulation is trying to 
>>>>>>> introduce a red herring.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> D(D) simulated by H never halts
>>>>>> D(D) simulated by H never halts
>>>>>> D(D) simulated by H never halts
>>>>>> D(D) simulated by H never halts
>>>>>> D(D) simulated by H never halts
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