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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: D simulated by H never halts no matter what H does V3
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 13:17:27 -0500
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On 4/27/2024 1:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 4/27/24 1:51 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/27/2024 12:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 4/27/24 10:32 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/27/2024 6:45 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 4/27/24 1:34 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 10:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 11:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 9:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 9:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 8:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 12:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 11:19 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 11:34 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/2024 3:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-25 14:15:20 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int D(ptr x)  // ptr is pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 void main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   D(D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That H(D,D) must report on the behavior of its caller 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one that is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What H(D,D) must report is independet of what procedure 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (if any)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus when H(D,D) correctly reports that its input D(D) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach its own line 6 and halt no matter what H does then 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H can abort its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input and report that its input D(D) does not halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But since the program D(D) DOES reach its own line 6 when 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run, because H aborts its simulation and return 0 (since 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is what you say this H will do), your statement is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PROVEN TO BE A LIE, and you "logic" just a collection of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradictions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> D simulated by H cannot possibly reach its own line 06 thus 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not use the strawman deception to refer to a different D 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that D simulated by H never halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that the D(D) executed in main does halt is none 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of H's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> business because H is not allowed to report on the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caller.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, H doesn't need to report on the Behavior 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the Program described by its input because it isn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually a Halt Decider, because you are just a LIAR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone knowing the theory of computation knows that H is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not allowed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> report on the behavior of its caller.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In computability theory and computational complexity 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory, an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> undecidable problem is a decision problem for which it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> proved to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible to construct an algorithm that always leads to a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct yes-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or-no answer. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undecidable_problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The behavior of the simulated D(D) before H aborts its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different than the behavior of the executed D(D) after H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> has aborted
>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every time that a simulated input would never stop running 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>>>>>>> aborted the simulating termination analyzer must abort this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to prevent its own infinite execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) is a case of this H1(D,D) is not a case of this even 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only difference between H and H1 is that D calls H and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> D does
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not call H1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> D simulated by H would never stop running unless aborted 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly reach its own line 06 and halt no matter what H does.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus whenever we do not use the strawman deception to refer 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different D we know that D simulated by H specifies a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-halting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sequence of configurations to H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *This might be a more succinct way of summing that up*
>>>>>>>>>>>> When you understand that D simulated by H cannot possibly 
>>>>>>>>>>>> reach past its own line 03 (thus cannot possibly halt) no 
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter what H does and
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But since H does whatever H does, if H aborts and returns 0, 
>>>>>>>>>>> the the direct execution of D, which is what actually 
>>>>>>>>>>> matters, DOES get to that point.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is another much less useful way to make a universally 
>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>> termination analyzer:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> int H(ptr x, ptr y)
>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>    printf("The input program does whatever it does!\n");
>>>>>>>>>>    return 777; // code for it does what it does
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But that doesn't make H answer the question.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I guess you don't understand what I am saying.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You said "no matter what H does", but that is a MEANINGLESS 
>>>>>>>>> statement, because H will do what H is programmed to do, so we 
>>>>>>>>> don't need to look at other behavior, but just the behavior 
>>>>>>>>> that H ac
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It can be verified through ordinary software engineering that 
>>>>>>>>>> D(D)
>>>>>>>>>> simulated H cannot possibly reach past its own line 03.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, but that is just a lying RED HERRING, as the question 
>>>>>>>>> isn't about what H's simulation of the input does, but what the 
>>>>>>>>> program the input actually represents does when run.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> YOu are just effectively admitting that you are nothing but a 
>>>>>>>>> stupid liar that doesn't know what he is talking about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It can be verified through computer science that this means 
>>>>>>>>>> that D(D) simulated H by never reaches its own final state and 
>>>>>>>>>> halts whether
>>>>>>>>>> H aborts its simulation or not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which, since this H DOES abort its simulation is trying to 
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