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Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: Can D simulated by H terminate normally? Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2024 14:39:57 -0400 Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) Message-ID: <v0m55t$2gl1f$3@i2pn2.org> References: <v0k4jc$laej$1@dont-email.me> <v0l11u$ussl$1@dont-email.me> <v0lh24$123q3$1@dont-email.me> <v0lic7$2g492$3@i2pn2.org> <v0lkas$12q0o$3@dont-email.me> <v0loq2$2g493$1@i2pn2.org> <v0lq7d$14579$2@dont-email.me> <v0ls98$2g492$7@i2pn2.org> <v0m29q$166o1$1@dont-email.me> <v0m37e$2gl1e$1@i2pn2.org> <v0m3v5$16k3h$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2024 18:39:57 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="2642991"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg"; User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <v0m3v5$16k3h$1@dont-email.me> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 Bytes: 10677 Lines: 238 On 4/28/24 2:19 PM, olcott wrote: > On 4/28/2024 1:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >> On 4/28/24 1:50 PM, olcott wrote: >>> On 4/28/2024 11:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>> On 4/28/24 11:33 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>> On 4/28/2024 10:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>> On 4/28/24 9:52 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 8:19 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/28/24 8:56 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 3:23 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-28 00:17:48 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Can D simulated by H terminate normally? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> One should not that "D simulated by H" is not the same as >>>>>>>>>> "simulation of D by H". The message below seems to be more >>>>>>>>>> about the latter than the former. In any case, it is more >>>>>>>>>> about the properties of H than about the properties of D. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> D specifies what is essentially infinite recursion to H. >>>>>>>>> Several people agreed that D simulated by H cannot possibly >>>>>>>>> reach past its own line 03 no matter what H does. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nope, it is only that if H fails to be a decider. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the term decider* >>>>>>> *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the term decider* >>>>>>> *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the term decider* >>>>>>> *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the term decider* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You admit that people see that as being a claim about the Halting >>>>>> Problem, and thus the implied definitons of the terms apply. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The only way to get people to understand that I am correct >>>>> and thus not always ignore my words and leap to the conclusion >>>>> that I must be wrong is to insist that they review every single >>>>> detail of all of my reasoning one tiny step at a time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> No, the way to get people to understand what you are saying is to >>>> use the standard terminology, and start with what people will accept >>>> and move to what is harder to understand. >>>> >>>> People have no obligation to work in the direction you want them to. >>>> >>>> Yes, when you speak non-sense, people will ignore you, because what >>>> you speak is non-sense. >>>> >>>> You are just proving that you don't understand how to perform logic, >>>> or frame a persuasive arguement. >>>> >>>> That fact that as far as we can tell, your "logic" is based on you >>>> making up things and trying to form justifications for them, just >>>> makes people unwilling to attempt to "accept" your wild ideas to see >>>> what might make sense. >>>> >>> >>> Linguistic determinism is the concept that language and its structures >>> limit and determine human knowledge or thought, as well as thought >>> processes such as categorization, memory, and perception. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_determinism >> >> So? Since formal logic isn't based on Linguistics, it doesn't directly >> impact it. IT might limit the forms we >> >>> >>> Some of the technical "terms of the art" box people into misconceptions >>> for which there is no escape. Some of the technical "terms of the art" >>> I perfectly agree with. >>> >>> *Important technical "term of the art" that I totally agree with* >>> Computable functions are the formalized analogue of the intuitive notion >>> of algorithms, in the sense that a function is computable if there >>> exists an algorithm that can do the job of the function, i.e. given an >>> input of the function domain it can return the corresponding output. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_function >> >> But you seem to miss that Halting isn't a "Computable Function", as >> Turing Proved. >> > > Even the term "halting" is problematic. > For 15 years I thought it means stops running for any reason. And that shows your STUPIDITY, not an error in the Theory. > Now I know that it means reaches the final state. Half the > people here may not know that. No, I suspect most of the people here are smarter than that. > > What Turing proved or did not prove requires carefully > examining every tiny step and not simply leaping to the > conclusion that Turing was right therefore I am wrong. Turing PROVED he was right with a rigorous proof that has been examined by many people and no errors found. You just admitted that you have been working under wrong definitions, and have no grounds to claim you understand all (or any) of what you talk about. Yet, you have the gaul to claim that you must be right and everyone else is wrong, just after admitting that you have been wrong for most of the time. > >>> >>>> You claim you want to work in a manner to save time, but then seem >>>> to explicitly go on a tack that will force you to waste time by >>>> needing to return to your prior points when you change the >>>> definition and prove them again. >>>> >>> >>> I am only interested in an actual honest dialogue. Because of this I >>> must insist that any dialogue must go through every single detail of >>> my reasoning one tiny nuance of a point at time. >> >> So, why do you insist that people must do it YOUR way. >> > > I insist that people go over every single detail of my reasoning > instead of saying "no matter what you say Turing was right therefore > you are wrong". But since your "reasoning" begins by making dodgy assumptions, people are going to reject that from the start. And then you insist that people start by accepting your dodgy assumptions, with a promise to prove them later. START by proving them, and maybe people will look at your work. So far, everything that I have seen you present has been based on the idea that "Turing is wrong and I am right, and I ask you to trust me on by dodgy assumptions". Since previously you point blanks said that H, as a Halt Decider was "Correct" as a Halt Decider to return non-halting for H(D,D) even though D(D) halted, and the DEFINITION of H(D,D) was to ask about the behavior of D(D), but "for reasons" the wrong answer was correct because D(D) doesn't always behave the same way when that is counter to the fundamental definitions of Computation Theory. It then came out that the reason was that H never was the required computation (since it depended on a hidden input) so you whole proposal was just a lie. > >> That is the OPPOSITE of "Honest Dialog" >> >>> >>> I have spent 20 years doing this and found that this is the only >>> possible way to get people to actually validate my actual reasoning >>> and not simply ignore my words and leap to the conclusion that I >>> must be wrong. >>> >> >> Nope, perhaps you learned that you can get sidetracked, but it is not >> the only way. >> >> I think your biggest problem that keeps you from getting to where you >> want to get to is not knowing anything about the fields you try to >> talk about. >> >>> We can go around and around about this until one of us gets >>> bored, yet I absolutely will not progress to any other points >>> until we have mutual agreement on the current point: >>> >>> 01 int D(ptr x) // ptr is pointer to int function ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========