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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Can D simulated by H terminate normally? POE
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2024 19:07:44 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 4/28/24 3:43 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/28/2024 2:29 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 4/28/24 3:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/28/2024 1:42 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 4/28/24 2:23 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/28/2024 1:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/28/24 1:55 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 12:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/28/24 10:15 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 9:00 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/24 9:45 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 8:13 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/24 11:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/2024 10:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/24 10:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/2024 9:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/24 9:54 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/2024 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/24 8:58 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/2024 7:49 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/24 8:17 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can D simulated by H terminate normally?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The x86utm operating system based on an open source 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> x86 emulator.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This system enables one C function to execute 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another C function
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in debug step mode. When H simulates D it creates a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> context for D with its own memory, stack and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> virtual registers. H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is able to simulate D simulating itself, thus the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only limit to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursive simulations is RAM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> // The following is written in C
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 typedef int (*ptr)(); // pointer to int function
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 int H(ptr x, ptr y)    // uses x86 emulator to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate its input
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04 int D(ptr x)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 void main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 13 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14   D(D);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Execution Trace
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line 14: main() invokes D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeps repeating (unless aborted)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line 06: simulated D(D) invokes simulated H(D,D) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that simulates D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulation invariant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D correctly simulated by H cannot possibly reach 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own line 09.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it dead obvious to everyone here when examining 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the execution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trace of lines 14 and 06 above that D correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by H cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly terminate normally by reaching its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line 09?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except that you fail to mention that you have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> admitted that you are NOT working on the Halting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Problem, despite trying to use terminology similar 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to it, but having stipulated definition that are in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conflict with computaiton theory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Note, "keeps repeating (unless aborted)" is a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misleading statement, as your H will ALWAYS abort 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this input, and thus it NEVER will "Keep repeating".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't like me pointing out the problem because 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you prefer to be able to LIE to people about what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are doing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You work has NOTHING to do with Halting, as your H/D 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are not even turing equivalenet to their namesakes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the proof you like to mention.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is the exact verbatim post and the first 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respondent agreed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and immediately noticed that I was referring to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halting problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I will go with what I said, you just don't know C 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well and want to keep that hidden behind rhetoric and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> denigration.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you couch it to SOUND like the halting problem, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it isn't as you have FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning of terms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And thus, to act like it is, just makes you a LIAR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halting is NOT about H being able to simulate it input 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the final state. PERIOD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could show how it is but you prefer to believe 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise and refuse
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to go through the detailed steps required.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you CAN'T, because you have FUNDAMENTALLY changed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the question, sinc eyou claim that even though D(D) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halts, that H(D,D) is correct to say not halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not my error it is your indoctrination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, How is H(D,D) saying false correct if D(D) Halts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You refuse to go through the mandatory steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU are the only one that says they are "Manditory".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That doesn't make them so for me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU refuse to explain how a Halting Turing Machine can be 
>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly decider as "Non-Halting".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your "excuses" all seem to boil down to you just need to lie 
>>>>>>>>>>>> about what you are actually doing and that you refuse to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> even learn what the actual rules and language of what you 
>>>>>>>>>>>> are saying you are doing are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SInce the DEFINITION of the quesiton that H, the Halt 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Decider, is to answer is if the computation describe by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its input (that is D(D) ) will halt when run.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have to hide behind obfuscation, blusgter and LIES.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since you don't seem to know that actual meaning of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> words you use, as you have even occationally admitted, it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is clear who knows what they are talking about and who 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will also point out that you have effectively admitted 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that your statements are unsopported as you always fail to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide actual references to accepted ground for your claims.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is psychotic that people really believes that the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> principle of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explosion is valid inference even though there is zero 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doubt the it
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