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Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: Can D simulated by H terminate normally? Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:46:19 -0400 Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) Message-ID: <v0rsbr$2m1nf$6@i2pn2.org> References: <v0k4jc$laej$1@dont-email.me> <v0l11u$ussl$1@dont-email.me> <v0lh24$123q3$1@dont-email.me> <v0lic7$2g492$3@i2pn2.org> <v0lkas$12q0o$3@dont-email.me> <v0loq2$2g493$1@i2pn2.org> <v0lq7d$14579$2@dont-email.me> <v0ls98$2g492$7@i2pn2.org> <v0m29q$166o1$1@dont-email.me> <v0m37e$2gl1e$1@i2pn2.org> <v0m3v5$16k3h$1@dont-email.me> <v0m55t$2gl1f$3@i2pn2.org> <v0m5sn$172p4$1@dont-email.me> <v0m7em$2gl1f$5@i2pn2.org> <v0m7tq$17dpv$1@dont-email.me> <v0m8g9$2gl1e$6@i2pn2.org> <v0m978$17k7o$3@dont-email.me> <v0mko6$2hf3s$2@i2pn2.org> <v0n59h$1h98e$1@dont-email.me> <v0o037$2j1tu$3@i2pn2.org> <v0oc65$1q3aq$3@dont-email.me> <v0p9ts$2ki5r$6@i2pn2.org> <v0q1rk$2a3u1$1@dont-email.me> <v0qkti$2m1nf$1@i2pn2.org> <v0r4a3$2hb7o$6@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:46:20 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="2819823"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg"; User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 In-Reply-To: <v0r4a3$2hb7o$6@dont-email.me> Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 15314 Lines: 314 On 4/30/24 11:55 AM, olcott wrote: > On 4/30/2024 6:33 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >> On 4/30/24 2:07 AM, olcott wrote: >>> On 4/29/2024 6:19 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>> On 4/29/24 10:51 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>> On 4/29/2024 6:25 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>> On 4/28/24 11:48 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 6:05 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/28/24 3:48 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 2:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/24 3:26 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 2:18 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/24 2:52 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 1:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/24 2:19 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 1:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/24 1:50 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 11:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/24 11:33 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 10:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/24 9:52 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 8:19 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/24 8:56 AM, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 3:23 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-04-28 00:17:48 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can D simulated by H terminate normally? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One should not that "D simulated by H" is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "simulation of D by H". The message below seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the latter than the former. In any case, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the properties of H than about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> properties of D. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D specifies what is essentially infinite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursion to H. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several people agreed that D simulated by H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach past its own line 03 no matter what H does. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, it is only that if H fails to be a decider. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> term decider* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> term decider* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> term decider* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *We don't make this leap of logic. I never used the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> term decider* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You admit that people see that as being a claim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the Halting Problem, and thus the implied >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitons of the terms apply. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only way to get people to understand that I am >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and thus not always ignore my words and leap to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that I must be wrong is to insist that they review >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every single >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> detail of all of my reasoning one tiny step at a time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, the way to get people to understand what you are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying is to use the standard terminology, and start >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with what people will accept and move to what is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harder to understand. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People have no obligation to work in the direction you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want them to. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, when you speak non-sense, people will ignore you, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because what you speak is non-sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are just proving that you don't understand how to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perform logic, or frame a persuasive arguement. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That fact that as far as we can tell, your "logic" is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> based on you making up things and trying to form >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifications for them, just makes people unwilling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to attempt to "accept" your wild ideas to see what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might make sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linguistic determinism is the concept that language and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its structures >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> limit and determine human knowledge or thought, as well >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as thought >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> processes such as categorization, memory, and perception. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_determinism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So? Since formal logic isn't based on Linguistics, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't directly impact it. IT might limit the forms we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of the technical "terms of the art" box people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into misconceptions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for which there is no escape. Some of the technical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "terms of the art" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I perfectly agree with. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Important technical "term of the art" that I totally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agree with* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Computable functions are the formalized analogue of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intuitive notion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of algorithms, in the sense that a function is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computable if there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exists an algorithm that can do the job of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function, i.e. given an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input of the function domain it can return the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding output. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you seem to miss that Halting isn't a "Computable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Function", as Turing Proved. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even the term "halting" is problematic. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For 15 years I thought it means stops running for any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And that shows your STUPIDITY, not an error in the Theory. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now I know that it means reaches the final state. Half the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people here may not know that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I suspect most of the people here are smarter than that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet again only rhetoric wit no actual reasoning. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you believe: >>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Halting means stopping for any reason. >>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Halting means reaching a final state. >>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) Neither. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In Computation Theory, which is the context of the >>>>>>>>>>>> discussion, Halting means reaching a final state. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The key is that NOT HALTING, means that the machine does NOT >>>>>>>>>>>> reach a final state after an unbounded number of steps of >>>>>>>>>>>> operation. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> An aborted simulation does not determine, by itself, if the >>>>>>>>>>>> machine being simulated is halting or not. This seems to be >>>>>>>>>>>> a fact you don't understand. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Halting is strictly a property of the direct execution of >>>>>>>>>>>> the machine, or things that are actually proven to be >>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent, like the (unaborted) simulation by a UTM. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> OK that is complete agreement with my correct understanding >>>>>>>>>>> of the conventional notion of halting. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> When we come up with a brand new idea such as a simulating >>>>>>>>>>> termination >>>>>>>>>>> analyzer that simulates its input until it matches a non halting ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========