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Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Subject: Re: RE: Re: Bicyclist decapitated Date: Wed, 1 May 2024 12:09:48 -0500 Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd. Lines: 197 Message-ID: <v0tt0r$39bu9$1@dont-email.me> References: <tk9o2j5o1oq9k4iaet4loqoiphkj2164fj@4ax.com> <v0hm4i$13vh$1@dont-email.me> <pjro2jp9b6mi3m8pf61k7d6pockghceevo@4ax.com> <v0ipqs$bp76$2@dont-email.me> <53fq2jhilk6oedbglp8bj1t7h7olvg7nom@4ax.com> <v0jod7$imeb$1@dont-email.me> <fl4t2jhj8clmir6pddqkdh0ftip2p7ir07@4ax.com> <v0m831$17i67$1@dont-email.me> <ad3u2j1k0qt686jtopldv5secnu7a92i9t@4ax.com> <v0oh9b$1r98l$2@dont-email.me> <gaa03jhhku913b90o7klrllsvn8mmhbkif@4ax.com> <v0pjh7$233td$2@dont-email.me> <hhm03jtp03iktl7plgpndeeu8fcek6ah0d@4ax.com> <v0r4g5$2hsce$1@dont-email.me> <v0ral1$2ji0d$1@dont-email.me> <YfuYN.42790$Y79f.4922@fx16.iad> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 19:09:48 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="91119a6b5ea9f5f2b6ed42165acff03d"; logging-data="3452873"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19ka0cvlRdLhuE2h3kppIoN" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:o4HZbO3m6FbQ1/XURPbrVvwWAMs= In-Reply-To: <YfuYN.42790$Y79f.4922@fx16.iad> Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 10048 On 5/1/2024 11:40 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: > On Tue Apr 30 12:44:01 2024 AMuzi wrote: >> On 4/30/2024 10:58 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>> On 4/29/2024 11:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: >>>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 22:03:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 4/29/2024 7:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 12:18:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/28/2024 11:40 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: >>>>>>>> I beg to partially differ. If we assume that all the >>>>>>>> known elements >>>>>>>> are present in roughly the same distributions >>>>>>>> throughout the universe, >>>>>>>> there's a good chance that self-replicating life >>>>>>>> processes will be >>>>>>>> built using the same elements as on planet Earth. >>>>>>>> "Carbon atoms are >>>>>>>> unique because they can bond together to form very >>>>>>>> long, durable >>>>>>>> chains that can have branches or rings of various >>>>>>>> sizes and often >>>>>>>> contain thousands of carbon atoms." >>>>>>>> <https://www.nature.com/articles/139290a0.pdf> >>>>>>>> The emergence of life is possible with comparatively >>>>>>>> inferior elements >>>>>>>> but the main building block will mostly likely be a >>>>>>>> stable atom that >>>>>>>> will build the strongest and move versatile bonds to >>>>>>>> other atoms. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Agreed. I confess to low talent for chemistry. But I've >>>>>>> not yet heard of >>>>>>> a detailed proposal for a chemistry of life built on >>>>>>> anything but carbon. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If someone here has such a proposal, I'd happily run it >>>>>>> by the chemists >>>>>>> in our family. >>>>>> >>>>>> Did you search for "silicon based life"? There is quite >>>>>> a bit on the >>>>>> possible existence of Silicon based life: >>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=possibility+of+silicon+based+life> >>>> >>>>> I've read about the possibilities of silicon for decades >>>>> now, but I've >>>>> never seen details on exactly how it would form the >>>>> hugely complex >>>>> molecules necessary for life, let alone self-replicate them. >>>> >>>> That's easy. Take a complex hydrocarbon, probably an >>>> amino acid, rip >>>> out the carbon atom and replace it with a silicon atom. >>>> Keep the >>>> results away from water. The double helix zipper should >>>> work as well >>>> for silicon as it does for carbon. >>>> >>>> The possibilities of human powered flight goes back to the >>>> Greeks and >>>> Icarus in approx 8 CE. It wasn't until 1898, when Otto >>>> Lilianthal >>>> built a glider that worked more than once. The first >>>> human powered >>>> flight was in 1961 by Derek Piggot using pedal power. >>>> During those 19 >>>> centuries between mythology and something that actually >>>> flew, humanity >>>> wasn't idle. The wise and the brave made their attempts >>>> and usually >>>> failed. That didn't discourage their successor. Everyone >>>> knew that >>>> it could be done. They just didn't know how. Eventually, >>>> the magic >>>> formula for human powered flight was discovered and >>>> progress lurched >>>> forward at an incredible rate. For 19 centuries, progress >>>> was >>>> measured in false hopes, crashes, fatalities and >>>> discouragement from >>>> those who should have known better: >>>> "Premature Judgment" >>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt> >>>> There are about 10 quotes, from the eminent luminaries of >>>> their times, >>>> indicating that flight was impossible. For example: >>>> >>>> "Heavier than air flying machines are impossible." >>>> -- Lord Kelvin >>>> >>>> I suggest you print a copy of the above quotes, and read >>>> them whenever >>>> you fell compelled to discourage progress or claim that >>>> something is >>>> impossible, impractical or useless. I also read it when >>>> dealing with >>>> a long succession of failures and dismal results. The >>>> road to success >>>> it littered with the wreckage of past failures. The trick >>>> is to not >>>> trip over the wreckage. >>>> >>>>> Those are the details I'd like to run by the chemists I >>>>> know. >>>> >>>> Why? Are they sufficiently imaginative to contrive a >>>> solution to the >>>> silicon life problem? That's the problem with experts. >>>> If they can't >>>> design something that works, they immediately assume that >>>> nobody else >>>> can. That's what Dr Lindemann did when he analyzed the >>>> aerial photos >>>> of the V2 on the ground and declared that it was too heavy >>>> to get off >>>> the ground because he assume that it was powered by >>>> cordite, not >>>> ethanol and LOX. >>>> >>>>> Most of the articles I find on quick search say silicon >>>>> based life _may_ >>>>> be possible, but is highly unlikely. >>>> >>>> You don't need an expert to tell you that silicon based >>>> life is >>>> impossible. You only need an expert to verify that your >>>> proposed >>>> solution has a chance of working. That's what design >>>> reviews are for. >>>> Also, if you are sufficiently desperate that you need the >>>> advice of an >>>> expert, then you are not sufficiently informed, educated or >>>> experienced about the problems. Ask your expert to >>>> explain to you the >>>> problems involved in creating a silicon based life form on >>>> earth and >>>> in a possible alien environment. You're likely to learn >>>> more from a >>>> list of potential problems and possible solutions than >>>> from an >>>> expert's summary judgment. >>>> >>>> Now, print out the premature judgment list in the above >>>> URL. Most of >>>> the names listed were at the peak of their profession in >>>> their day. >>>> Look them up with Google to convince yourself that they >>>> are real. Ask >>>> yourself "what were they thinking when they said that?" >>>> In some >>>> cases, they had good reason to give the wrong advice, >>>> usually the >>>> result of being involved in a previous failure. Like >>>> Lindemann, they >>>> assumed that if they had failed, then everyone after them >>>> will also >>>> fail. >>> >>> Lots of good advice there. And I like the list of Premature >>> Judgment quotes. >>> >>> Since I'm actually not the one trying to construct silicon >>> based extraterrestrial life forms, I'll pass all this on to >>> ... um, whatever entity is involved in that effort. >>> >>> Do you happen to have its email address? ;-) >>> >> ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========