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From: DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Making your mind up
Date: Thu, 2 May 2024 12:34:10 -0500
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On 2024-04-29 8:45 PM, Bob Casanova wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 17:49:21 -0500, the following appeared
> in talk.origins, posted by DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>:
> 
>> On 2024-04-29 11:53 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Apr 2024 09:12:08 -0700, the following appeared
>>> in talk.origins, posted by Mark Isaak
>>> <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net>:
>>>
>>>> On 4/28/24 10:32 AM, Bob Casanova wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 16:50:12 -0700, the following appeared
>>>>> in talk.origins, posted by Mark Isaak
>>>>> <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/26/24 4:27 PM, Bob Casanova wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 09:32:27 -0700, the following appeared
>>>>>>> in talk.origins, posted by Mark Isaak
>>>>>>> <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net>:
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I get the feeling that predetermination means, to you, that if I am
>>>>>>>> predetermined to choose to buy this house (say), then no matter what I
>>>>>>>> think, or even if I don't think at all, I will end up deciding to buy
>>>>>>>> that house. I could move to Tibet, scramble my brain with acid, and
>>>>>>>> spend all my conscious time playing Candy Crush, and still, in a day or
>>>>>>>> two, the though will come to me, "I need to buy that house."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's not how predeterminism works. In a predetermined world, I find
>>>>>>>> myself in need or want of a house, contact a realtor who shows me
>>>>>>>> available listings; I visit those houses which are in good price range
>>>>>>>> and neighborhoods; probably I am influenced by external factors such as
>>>>>>>> the amount of traffic I had to fight through to get there or how hungry
>>>>>>>> I am at the time. The good and bad points of the different houses being
>>>>>>>> fed into my mind, I eliminate some obvious non-candidates, and let my
>>>>>>>> gut guide me to the best of the remaining.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is predetermination at work.  Note that it appears, to all
>>>>>>>> observers, exactly the same as non-predetermination. That's why the Free
>>>>>>>> Will issue has never been resolved.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, if I'm understanding that correctly, there is no
>>>>>>> difference between determinism and non-determinism (or if
>>>>>>> you prefer, determination and non-determination), and
>>>>>>> therefore "free will" is a bugaboo which is not accepted
>>>>>>> although its implications are?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No detectable difference between the two. And I should have added "free
>>>>>> will" is also wrapped up in religious, personal angst, and equivocation
>>>>>> issues, which also contribute to making it a bugaboo.
>>>>>>
>>>>> OK. I'd point out that the fact that the concept of free
>>>>> will is "wrapped up in religious, personal angst, and
>>>>> equivocation issues" doesn't make it false.
>>>>
>>>> My position is not that it is false, but that it is effectively meaningless.
>>>>
>>>>> And that one
>>>>> possible reason why there's no detectable difference is that
>>>>> we have no way to detect the operation of free will in
>>>>> itself.
>>>>
>>>> I have given some thought to how, even in theory and with advanced
>>>> technology, one might detect free will, and I have come up empty. Some
>>>> Star-Trek-like parallel universe thought experiments could conceivably
>>>> determine whether the universe was deterministic or not, but even if
>>>> not, that only rules out determinism, not the lack of free will.
>>>>
>>> Yep. I've done the same, although not in any great depth,
>>> and come to the same conclusion; the closest I've come is
>>> something like, "Well, the probabilistic nature of base
>>> reality *seems* to leave room for something resembling
>>> choice, but as for testing it...".
>>
>> Hmm, what could this "something resembling choice" be, other than
>> something 'outside' reality (ie supernatural) that somehow (magic?)
>> overrides the "probabilistic nature of base reality"?
>>
> You might want to re-read what I actually wrote, which was
> not that anything is "outside reality". Reality, at base, is
> probabilistic, not "clockwork".

Note: I was asking a question about *my* viewpoint concerning "something 
resembling choice" given "probabilistic nature of base reality", not 
ascribing that viewpoint to you.
My understanding of the "probabilistic nature of base reality" is that 
some subatomic events are truly random and can have, over the long term, 
gross effects and very occasionally immediate gross effects. How does 
this allow for "something resembling choice"?
>>
>>> It's sometimes amusing to
>>> discuss such things as determinism vs. free will, or the
>>> number of angels which can occupy a pin point, but it
>>> becomes boring fairly quickly due to the lack of any way,
>>> even conceptually, to determine the answer. Which, as I
>>> noted below, brings it down to a matter of belief in the
>>> validity of personal experience.
>>
>> My, somewhat vague and evolving, view is that it feels like I experience
>> 'qualia' and 'make choices' between alternatives and that I am not
>> special, so others who report the same are not philosophical zombies
>> deterministically lying to me. It is a 'real thing'. I see two
>> possibilities. There is some unknown, evidenced phenomenon unrelated to
>> known physics somehow related to some minimal level of complexity of
>> life (dualism/free will) or a, actual activity unknown, manifestation of
>> physical brain activity (determinism). What leads me to believe the
>> second is more likely is the indirect evidence. Alteration of brain
>> activity (physical damage, drugs,etc) causes changes in peoples'
>> reported qualia and changes in (historically expected) personality and
>> range of choices made. This is usually observable with major changes to
>> the brain producing major changes in personality and/or range of
>> choices.but I think it not an unreasonable extrapolation to minor
>> changes in the brain (caused by minor changes in the environment) to
>> cause minor changes in experience/choices due to the same mechanisms.
>>
>> Your friend George is picking new wallpaper for his living room. Knowing
>> your friend and his living room, you think he will likely pick something
>> off white with a small floral motif in blue.
>> You visit and see he chose pale yellow with thin blue striping. You are
>> not surprised by this and on discussing it with him he states he was
>> considering something like what you were thinking but this one really
>> struck him when he saw it in the store.
>> Or
>> You visit him and see he chose a vibrant, primary coloured geometric
>> zig-zag pattern. You think 'was he on drugs? / dropped on his head?' not
>> 'hmm, how unusual'.
>>
>> So, what is the sourcr of the phenomena we often descibe as 'dualiy'
>> and/or 'free will? We may never know but my personal belief, based on
>> the evidence I have, is that it is almost certainly due to some kind of
>> phyical activity, most likely in the brain (in humans and our close
>> relatives).
>>>>
>>>>> Testimony, of course, is irrelevant, since it may
>>>>> itself be deterministic. I do see the problem, which comes
>>>>> down to whether to accept of the validity of personal
>>>>> experience. I happen to choose (there's that word again...)
>>>>> to do so.
>>
>> -- 

-- 
--
Don Cates ("he's a cunning rascal" PN)