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From: Mark Isaak <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: oecies just appear in the strata asz
Date: Mon, 6 May 2024 08:13:46 -0700
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On 5/3/24 6:47 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
> John Harshman wrote:
>> On 5/3/24 2:39 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
>>> Ernest Major wrote:
>>>> On 02/05/2024 15:39, Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>> Ernest Major wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/05/2024 03:52, Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>> John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/30/24 4:27 AM, Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>> John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/24 6:06 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ernest Major wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/04/2024 02:31, Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think due to gradual increasing genetic errors and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> increase rate of deleterious mutations each generation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> becomes  less fit than the preceding generation, so in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> passing spans of time the genes of a species become less 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and less incapable of reproduction or species survival. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This could account for many of 99%+ of of all species that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ever lived that have gone extinct. Of course the dinosaurs 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> became extinct due to a 6 mile diameter meteor striking the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth. Also changing weather the coming and going of ice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ages; as well massive volcano eruptions  accounts for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> extinction of many species for example in Siberia.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you taking a progressive creationist position, in which 
>>>>>>>>>>>> your Intelligent Designer is continuously creating species 
>>>>>>>>>>>> de novo? Or are you claiming that the current 10 million 
>>>>>>>>>>>> (+/- a lot) species biota is the remnant of a much richer 
>>>>>>>>>>>> biota of a billion species?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For your information, the conclusion drawn from the fossil 
>>>>>>>>>>>> record is that (for multicellular eukaryotes at least) 
>>>>>>>>>>>> species diversity has been generally increasing over time 
>>>>>>>>>>>> (though with big setbacks at times of mass extinction).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> snip
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>> I dismissed, Although I do try to respond to questions, 
>>>>>>> challenges and issues. I cannot address every comment that's 
>>>>>>> presented due to time and my present concerns and interest. I'm 
>>>>>>> not so sure of just how important anything I see on TO is to me, 
>>>>>>> right now especially this thread. I never intentionally defended 
>>>>>>> or supported West Virginia Creationism. But rather intelligent 
>>>>>>> design has been my interest for decades.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To remind you of the context, I've removed the intermediate 
>>>>>> material. The context is not "West Virginia creationism". The 
>>>>>> context is the claims you've made about the natural world.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I think the weakest facets of evolution is what is _not_ known 
>>>>> about origins. The most serious is the question is the origin of 
>>>>> highly complex information. Except for life, nothing else in the 
>>>>> natural world has ever equaled or come close to such information. 
>>>>> If the present is key to the past, then there is no exception; 
>>>>> highly complex information comes _only_ from a mind. Without 
>>>>> information - there is no life.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That may be a reply, but it's not a response.
>>>>
>>>> You've been advocating for "genetic entropy" in which gene pools 
>>>> degrade over time to the point that species become extinct.
>>>  >
>>> If the fossil records reflects the actual events in the history of 
>>> life, then according the late S.J. Gould and Niles Eldredge the 
>>> majority of species appear abruptly in the record, remain in virtual 
>>> stasis for their duration on the planet, then they disappear from the 
>>> fossil record.
>>> We know that copy error occur ( mutations) very few are said to be 
>>> beneficial, but there are far more
>>> that are detrimental, unfit to survive and are removed by natural 
>>> selection.  However,  the overwhelming majority these errors are 
>>> neutral mutations. But are there any purely neutral mutations or 
>>> errors in copying? Probably not! They would tend in one direction or 
>>> the other. Those
>>> with slightly detrimental tendencies would survive, spread and pass 
>>> on the mutation. Since, by far the larger number of harmful mutations 
>>> exceed the beneficial ones, the accumulation of harmful mutations 
>>> would become the rule. Is there any rational or honest reason to 
>>> assert that this "genetic entropy" could not have led to species 
>>> extinction?
>>>
>>> In response to this
>>>> I asked "Are you taking a progressive creationist position, in which 
>>>> your Intelligent Designer is continuously creating species de novo? 
>>>  >
>>> Not at all. I think species can undergo minor changes, to whatever 
>>> change the genetic information within their gene pool can express. 
>>> I've read that only a relative small portion of it's gene pool is 
>>> used in the expression of an organism. Was is 99% is called waste 
>>> since no proteins are expressed? I don't this is believed today. So, 
>>> a vast amount of genetic information is present in a species gene 
>>> pool which can be used to create varying changes within species. How 
>>> many definitions is there of species? I think the best is any that 
>>> can breed and produce fertile offspring.
>>>
>>> Or
>>>> are you claiming that the current 10 million (+/- a lot) species 
>>>> biota is the remnant of a much richer biota of a billion species?"
>>>  >
>>> Don't know exactly how to answer this. But I've read that 99%+ of 
>>> species that ever lived have gone extinct. So, less than 1% remain 
>>> today. How to translate this into numbers, IE billions???  Or why 
>>> does numbers matter?
>>>>
>>>> I understand why ID advocates refrain from specifying the who of 
>>>> "Intelligent Design", as they don't want to make the religious 
>>>> underpinnings explicit. 
>>>  >
>>> No, that not the reason. Most observe that there is scientific 
>>> evidence for design, but there's no known scientific evidence which 
>>> _identifies_ the designer. One might believe the designer is the God, 
>>> but that's not of evidence, but rather it's a belief and only a belief!
>>> ..
>>>
>>>
>>> But why do you fail to be specific about the
>>>> what and the when? You claim that design is self-evident, but appear 
>>>> to be unable to identify what was designed.
>>>  >
>>> The genetic code is design the genetic information is infused into 
>>> the genetics of organisms. When: perhaps when the first life 
>>> appeared: or certainly, by the time of the Cambrian. I believe the 
>>> eye was
>>> designed. The first eyes were observed in the Cambrian when some 
>>> species of trilobites had developed, functioning eyes. Furthermore, 
>>> the master control gene of a mouse was transferred into a
>>> fruit fly embyro and the mouse eye gene played it's role in producing 
>>> the eye in the fruit fly. Not a mouse eye but a fruit fly eye. Was 
>>> the same Gene the Pax6 gene the same gene that produced the eyes of 
>>> trilobites? The point is there _nothing_ observed in record 
>>> demonstrating of the _evolution_ of the eye.
>>> There are detailed drawings, hypotheses and theories  regarding the 
>>> evolution of the eye, but
>>> this is constrained only by the limit of human imagination. Not 
>>> observed evidence. Deliberate, purposeful and highly complex design 
>>> is the most reasonable and logical explanation as to the origin of 
>>> the eye. But there is nothing that can overcome ones bias and 
>>> commitment to a paradigm, even if it's wrong.
>>>
>> Not a real response to Ernest's questions. I don't think you even 
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