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Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Alastair Hogge <agh@riseup.net> Newsgroups: comp.windows.x Subject: Re: Wayland Is Coming Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 02:18:51 -0000 (UTC) Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 63 Message-ID: <v1mkia$1ft4i$2@dont-email.me> References: <v1f0ja$3ot7f$2@dont-email.me> <v1lh0c$215e$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 04:18:53 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="3f25febe5ac4f3c0db8a9b0c920b67cd"; logging-data="1569938"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+pKt5XYPwcyL1/AxcK1r2YssT8e+71ucg=" User-Agent: Pan/0.145 (Duplicitous mercenary valetism; d7e168a git.gnome.org/pan2) Cancel-Lock: sha1:WoI8b7daTtX2x3vxW17RZWS5Hac= Bytes: 3943 On Fri, 10 May 2024 11:11:54 -0500, Zach Metzinger wrote: > On 5/7/24 23:55, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >> So, X11 development has been moribund for years. All the major GUI >> environments are adding Wayland support now. >> >> X11 is full of legacy cruft, like that graphics API (at least the font >> server API went away years ago). > > .. but does it work "well enough"? Yes. > > So many promises over the years of something better, but none have > displaced X11. > > Remember this one? > > https://github.com/graydon/berlin Oh. My. Gosh. I remember this, and have been looking for an archive for the last decade. Was unfortunate on the license choice tho. Ta very much for sharing. I was more interested in another project that started as General Graphics Interface (GGI)[1], a project to correct video terminal (UI/UX) integration with Linux, later FreeBSD, and other platforms. Think of a limited gstreamer for display/rendering engines. It evolved into two separate projects, the next being Kernel Graphics Interface (KGI)[2]. KGI was truly an amazing engineering feat like Fresco, both examples of engineering, and technical advancements not able to destabilise the clapped out bandwagons at the time. KGI aimed to finally fix the video terminal integration with kernel mode setting, and a portable modular driver framework (KGIM) for writing drivers, similar to the Uniform Driver Interface (UDI)[3], it was engineered for monolithic or microkernel systems. No more problems switching between X, or a vty. There was a X server XGGI that used this system. It was light years ahead of it's time, and today we are still far off reaching the aims of those projects, tho, it is obvious that portability, and diversity is not a goal anymore. I would love to know why Wayland, or how it came to be, to push the complexity of compositing further out from the Display Server into the client, like the window manager. Why is the complexity moved up the software stack, instead of down, into the core. The clients of a software system should be simpler. Personally, I think the WM should be part of the Display Server, to facilitate tighter syncing with the scanout. But then you probably lose the diversity of window managers. As was mentioned elsewhere, X should not be muxing the display hardware, the OS should be muxing display and events, X should be getting a generic framebuffer provided by the OS, for example by KGI. On FreeBSD, none of my AMD, or Intel GPUs can handle switching to the vty from X, or even display suspension, the graphics become fucked, input still works, but who knows what chat or Usenet group I am posting my financial institutions login details to. 1: http://www.ibiblio.org/ggicore/index.html 2: http://kgi-project.org/ 3: http://www.projectudi.org/ -- To health and anarchy